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    Private Sale!

    So would I be have a problem carrying a handgun that was done through a Private Party. I am very confident it is clean. I have a DOL form for my records. I never sent it in. I saw the guys DL, and CPL.

    I have heard stories of guys getting theirs taken away because when it was ran they are not the owner in the system, and the original owner had to go get it from the police.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin Quint View Post
    So would I be have a problem carrying a handgun that was done through a Private Party. I am very confident it is clean. I have a DOL form for my records. I never sent it in. I saw the guys DL, and CPL.

    I have heard stories of guys getting theirs taken away because when it was ran they are not the owner in the system, and the original owner had to go get it from the police.
    We have this thing called the 4th amendment.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCKilla View Post
    We have this thing called the 4th amendment.
    Don't worry... That's almost taken care of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin Quint View Post
    So would I be have a problem carrying a handgun that was done through a Private Party. I am very confident it is clean. I have a DOL form for my records. I never sent it in. I saw the guys DL, and CPL.

    I have heard stories of guys getting theirs taken away because when it was ran they are not the owner in the system, and the original owner had to go get it from the police.
    Interesting... I suppose several of my firearms were bought in private sales. I never thought to get any sort of "receipt" from them because I knew them... But I suppose I could get into a world of hurt if one day they decide to hate my guts, report the gun as stolen, or even go so far as to tell police that they think they know who took it... *sigh* luckily I have good relationships with those I've bought from. Maybe it's best to get at the very minimum a hand-written receipt with the buyer and seller's names and keep it in the gun safe. I like to think that we can still make deals on a handshake- but best to avoid any possible erroneous felonies for posession of "stolen goods" and "theft of a firearm"...
    Last edited by ConcordScout; 09-23-2012 at 06:20 AM. Reason: edited to add the word "erroneous"

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    No. There is no requirement in WA to give the state any information about a private firearm sale. There is no "registration" in this state. If you feel like you should keep a record of people's names that you've bought from and sold to, you can, but it isn't required. It's like selling someone your old computer desk, or a bicycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin Quint View Post
    So would I be have a problem carrying a handgun that was done through a Private Party. I am very confident it is clean. I have a DOL form for my records. I never sent it in. I saw the guys DL, and CPL.

    I have heard stories of guys getting theirs taken away because when it was ran they are not the owner in the system, and the original owner had to go get it from the police.
    This is a non-issue.

    The original dealer ATF Form 4473 is merelty a record of sale; it does not convey title. period.

    - most guns owned in the USA are owned thru private sales - usually multiple private sales - and even subsequent dealer sales of used guns are not trackable by the ATF because the ATF can only really track directly the manufacturer of the gun and thru that manufacturer, the first dealer it went to .

    The police cannot access ATF Form 4473 records - only through proper channels and justification can law enforcment get ATF assistance in locating the original ATF 4473 of the first dealer, and then only if it was not destroyed 10 years after the sale as allowed by federal law.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Unless the firearm is listed as "stolen" it won't be confiscated and the "original" owner required to recover it. Maybe in CA or other states but not here.

    In Washington, you don't have to prove you own it when it was taken from your person, they have to prove it isn't yours.

    There are exceptions. As an example, if you leave a firearm behind at some gun ranges (Kenmore is one) they turn the weapon over to the PD or Sheriff's department as "Found Property". To recover it you have to prove to the Agency that you are the lawful owner. In this case it might be real handy to have a Bill of Sale handy since the State has no "registration".
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Unless the firearm is listed as "stolen" it won't be confiscated and the "original" owner required to recover it. Maybe in CA or other states but not here.

    In Washington, you don't have to prove you own it when it was taken from your person, they have to prove it isn't yours.

    There are exceptions. As an example, if you leave a firearm behind at some gun ranges (Kenmore is one) they turn the weapon over to the PD or Sheriff's department as "Found Property". To recover it you have to prove to the Agency that you are the lawful owner. In this case it might be real handy to have a Bill of Sale handy since the State has no "registration".

    Are you legally required to let the officer remove it from you. Because, for some reason they want to run it. Me personally I would consider unlawful search, and seizure.

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    Would someone please give me a serious answer? Why are folks so paranoid about ending up buying a stolen gun (or one supposedly used in a violent crime*) through a private sale?

    Yes, BGs tend to get their guns either by stealing them or by buying them from other BGs. But we supposedly are not BGs and would not be buying from someone who even looked like they might be a BG, right? We ask questions, and occassionally ask to see DLs and/or permits/licenses if not getting a bill of sale.

    So why the paranoia?

    stay safe.

    * - Under what circumstances - even a self-defense shooting - are the cops going to play CSI and put a slug from you gun under the microscope to compare rifling marks against some slug recovered from a crime scene?
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    I have heard stories of guys getting theirs taken away because when it was ran they are not the owner in the system, and the original owner had to go get it from the police.


    Where, when, and who did it happen to? Names please.

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    Are you legally required to let the officer remove it from you.


    That's a question that can
    only be answered in court. Ethically, are you required to, if they demand it? Yes. These disputes are not to be fought on the side of the road. That's why we have courts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Where, when, and who did it happen to? Names please.[/COLOR]
    I was threatened with just such a maneuver.

    I bought a G17 from Cabela's, but apparently the form hadn't been entered into DOL yet.

    I was illegally detained for OC by PCSO, and the officer gave me a rant about 'registering' my guns, and if it wasn't 'registered' to me, he would take it for safekeeping until I could 'prove' it was mine...
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    Re: Private Sale!

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    I was threatened with just such a maneuver.

    I bought a G17 from Cabela's, but apparently the form hadn't been entered into DOL yet.

    I was illegally detained for OC by PCSO, and the officer gave me a rant about 'registering' my guns, and if it wasn't 'registered' to me, he would take it for safekeeping until I could 'prove' it was mine...
    You know what works great on LEOs breaking the law? Call the state patrol. Seriously, it's both hilarious and instructional to the local yocals. I've done it once, and warned that I would do it several times. So far it works wonders. Not saying that they are our saviors all the time, but they have all been thoroughly briefed on the OC thing.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    You know what works great on LEOs breaking the law? Call the state patrol. Seriously, it's both hilarious and instructional to the local yocals. I've done it once, and warned that I would do it several times. So far it works wonders. Not saying that they are our saviors all the time, but they have all been thoroughly briefed on the OC thing.

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    They will actually dispatch a trooper to educate the city kittys on the state constitution? I never knew that. I never thought they'd be willing to approach a situation they knew little about and take your side over other officers for an event they didn't witness, that's intersting
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    This is a non-issue.

    The original dealer ATF Form 4473 is merelty a record of sale; it does not convey title. period.

    - most guns owned in the USA are owned thru private sales - usually multiple private sales - and even subsequent dealer sales of used guns are not trackable by the ATF because the ATF can only really track directly the manufacturer of the gun and thru that manufacturer, the first dealer it went to .

    The police cannot access ATF Form 4473 records - only through proper channels and justification can law enforcment get ATF assistance in locating the original ATF 4473 of the first dealer, and then only if it was not destroyed 10 years after the sale as allowed by federal law.
    Mike may I take your statement with the caveat that the gun manufacture or FFL are not volunteering to comply with a LEA's request for this information?

    What I'm trying to say is does the law say the gun manufacturer or FFL cannot give out the info without justification or that the LEA cannot force it? If not this would indicate the LEA can get any of this info from a "cooperative" entity.

    Unfortunately I believe the "cooperative" entity would be a more common occurrence than not.

    I know my good friend who does my FFL transfers has told me of LEA's requesting information before...improperly. He has refused a few times (big 2A supporter) where it wasn't done right. I wonder how often that happens...
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Mike may I take your statement with the caveat that the gun manufacture or FFL are not volunteering to comply with a LEA's request for this information?

    What I'm trying to say is does the law say the gun manufacturer or FFL cannot give out the info without justification or that the LEA cannot force it? If not this would indicate the LEA can get any of this info from a "cooperative" entity.

    Unfortunately I believe the "cooperative" entity would be a more common occurrence than not.

    I know my good friend who does my FFL transfers has told me of LEA's requesting information before...improperly. He has refused a few times (big 2A supporter) where it wasn't done right. I wonder how often that happens...
    Well a Washington State Patrol detective requested reams of information on anyone who purchased AR-15 recievers last year from dozens of FFLs, the FFLs refused to provide the info, although several of them did state that they would have had the queries been more specific as opposed to a fishing expedition. So it really depends on the case.
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    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Re: Private Sale!

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    They will actually dispatch a trooper to educate the city kittys on the state constitution? I never knew that. I never thought they'd be willing to approach a situation they knew little about and take your side over other officers for an event they didn't witness, that's intersting
    No, you stay professional, let they dispatch know exactly what's going on without sounding like a crazy person, and when the patrolman get's there, as long as there's no ongoing crime, it's you're free to go. Again, you have to be very sure that you are indeed in the right. But yes it does work. Now go be a smart ass somewhere else.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    No, you stay professional, let they dispatch know exactly what's going on without sounding like a crazy person, and when the patrolman get's there, as long as there's no ongoing crime, it's you're free to go. Again, you have to be very sure that you are indeed in the right. But yes it does work. Now go be a smart ass somewhere else.

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    Huh? Where was I being a smartass, I am seriously amazed that another LEA will send in an officer to tell another agency they're wrong and enter a scenario they weren't involved in, that's wondering out loud, I always thought telling on other agencies wasn't going to help you.

    I apologize if it sounded that way, I really didn't mean it too.
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    You know what works great on LEOs breaking the law? Call the state patrol.
    I highly doubt it. Please provide a who-what-when-where, relating to when this actually worked.

    No Washington police agency has command authority over any other. The State Patrol is not superior to any other police agency in this state. All officers working for all agencies in this state (excluding federal) are simply commissioned officers. Again, none has any command authority over any other. Titles of rank only apply within individual agencies.

    You don't need a trooper to report a violation of the law by a police officer. Any commissioned officer will do - they all have the same authority.
    Last edited by deanf; 09-23-2012 at 10:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    I was threatened with just such a maneuver.

    I bought a G17 from Cabela's, but apparently the form hadn't been entered into DOL yet.

    I was illegally detained for OC by PCSO, and the officer gave me a rant about 'registering' my guns, and if it wasn't 'registered' to me, he would take it for safekeeping until I could 'prove' it was mine...
    So... what did you do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    I highly doubt it. Please provide a who-what-when-where, relating to when this actually worked.

    No Washington police agency has command authority over any other. The State Patrol is not superior to any other police agency in this state. All officers working for all agencies in this state (excluding federal) are simply commissioned officers. Again, none has any command authority over any other. Titles of rank only apply within individual agencies.

    You don't need a trooper to report a violation of the law by a police officer. Any commissioned officer will do - they all have the same authority.
    That's not completely correct. The sheriff is the supreme authority within his jurisdiction.
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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    So... what did you do?
    Laugh at him. Ok. not quite a laugh, but was hard to keep from smiling when he said it.

    The second officer "Fernandez" was the one being the *****, the one who wanted to tell me about 'registering' it and whatnot.

    I posted the audio of the encounter a few times.

    Below is the first time, unrelated to the registration.

    I haven't snipped the 'if it's not registered to you, we'll take it' part, IIRC, the audio was pretty bad, but still intelligible.

    http://soundcloud.com/john-parks-3/t...emypistolforoc

    Here is the ***** that I was talking about, L O L...

    Not sure if you can hear it, but I'm trying to hold back a laugh...

    http://soundcloud.com/john-parks-3/mustconceal
    Last edited by TechnoWeenie; 09-24-2012 at 12:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Huh? Where was I being a smartass, I am seriously amazed that another LEA will send in an officer to tell another agency they're wrong and enter a scenario they weren't involved in, that's wondering out loud, I always thought telling on other agencies wasn't going to help you.

    I apologize if it sounded that way, I really didn't mean it too.
    Actually as far as I know. The Country Sheriff's Office has jurisdiction over city police, WSP has jurisdiction over City/County, and feds have it over WSP.

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    Actually as far as I know. The Country Sheriff's Office has jurisdiction over city police, WSP has jurisdiction over City/County, and feds have it over WSP.

    This is a false notion. Washington law establishes the sheriff of a county as the "
    chief executive officer and conservator of the peace of the county." That's fine as far as it goes, but remember that counties get their operating authority from The State, as do cities. There is no chain of command of political jurisdictions in Washington. So just because Bellevue is in King County does not mean that the King County Sheriff has command authority over the Bellevue police chief. Once Bellevue was incorporated (as a Washington State city, not as a King County city), the Sheriff's command authority shrank to exclude Bellevue.

    This urban legend of the county sheriff holding command authority over all other law enforcement in his county stems from a mid-'90s federal court case that has been misinterpreted by many. The judge in the case was even so fed up that he posted comments on the court's web site. To wit:
    "This court has never made the comments attributed to it which purports to advise state officers they can prohibit federal law enforcement officers or agents from entering a Wyoming County," "Those alleged quotations are utterly false. Any person who interferes with federal officers in performance of their duties subjects themselves to the risk of criminal prosecution,


    This sheriff-as-highest-authority B.S. comes from the same people who refuse to recognize the authority of a court that displays a U.S. flag with gold fringe. "Fringe" being the key word here, I think.

    (This is not to say that in some states, their legislature or their constitution might establish a different system.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Mike may I take your statement with the caveat that the gun manufacture or FFL are not volunteering to comply with a LEA's request for this information?

    What I'm trying to say is does the law say the gun manufacturer or FFL cannot give out the info without justification or that the LEA cannot force it? If not this would indicate the LEA can get any of this info from a "cooperative" entity.

    Unfortunately I believe the "cooperative" entity would be a more common occurrence than not.

    I know my good friend who does my FFL transfers has told me of LEA's requesting information before...improperly. He has refused a few times (big 2A supporter) where it wasn't done right. I wonder how often that happens...
    No, my point is mainly that (1) federal law provides significant privacy protection re gun sale data, see http://epic.org/privacy/firearms/, and (2) that as a practical matter subsequent transfers of guns, and the 10 year ATF Form 4473 destruction authorization, provides practicle privacy to the title of most guns in America.

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