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Private Sale!

Calvin Quint

New member
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
4
Location
Olympia, Washington, United States
So would I be have a problem carrying a handgun that was done through a Private Party. I am very confident it is clean. I have a DOL form for my records. I never sent it in. I saw the guys DL, and CPL.

I have heard stories of guys getting theirs taken away because when it was ran they are not the owner in the system, and the original owner had to go get it from the police.
 

DCKilla

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
523
Location
Wet Side, WA
So would I be have a problem carrying a handgun that was done through a Private Party. I am very confident it is clean. I have a DOL form for my records. I never sent it in. I saw the guys DL, and CPL.

I have heard stories of guys getting theirs taken away because when it was ran they are not the owner in the system, and the original owner had to go get it from the police.
We have this thing called the 4th amendment.
 

ConcordScout

New member
Joined
Apr 6, 2012
Messages
9
Location
Bellevue
So would I be have a problem carrying a handgun that was done through a Private Party. I am very confident it is clean. I have a DOL form for my records. I never sent it in. I saw the guys DL, and CPL.

I have heard stories of guys getting theirs taken away because when it was ran they are not the owner in the system, and the original owner had to go get it from the police.

Interesting... I suppose several of my firearms were bought in private sales. I never thought to get any sort of "receipt" from them because I knew them... But I suppose I could get into a world of hurt if one day they decide to hate my guts, report the gun as stolen, or even go so far as to tell police that they think they know who took it... *sigh* luckily I have good relationships with those I've bought from. Maybe it's best to get at the very minimum a hand-written receipt with the buyer and seller's names and keep it in the gun safe. I like to think that we can still make deals on a handshake- but best to avoid any possible erroneous felonies for posession of "stolen goods" and "theft of a firearm"...
 
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SpyderTattoo

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
1,015
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
No. There is no requirement in WA to give the state any information about a private firearm sale. There is no "registration" in this state. If you feel like you should keep a record of people's names that you've bought from and sold to, you can, but it isn't required. It's like selling someone your old computer desk, or a bicycle.
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
So would I be have a problem carrying a handgun that was done through a Private Party. I am very confident it is clean. I have a DOL form for my records. I never sent it in. I saw the guys DL, and CPL.

I have heard stories of guys getting theirs taken away because when it was ran they are not the owner in the system, and the original owner had to go get it from the police.

This is a non-issue.

The original dealer ATF Form 4473 is merelty a record of sale; it does not convey title. period.

- most guns owned in the USA are owned thru private sales - usually multiple private sales - and even subsequent dealer sales of used guns are not trackable by the ATF because the ATF can only really track directly the manufacturer of the gun and thru that manufacturer, the first dealer it went to .

The police cannot access ATF Form 4473 records - only through proper channels and justification can law enforcment get ATF assistance in locating the original ATF 4473 of the first dealer, and then only if it was not destroyed 10 years after the sale as allowed by federal law.
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Unless the firearm is listed as "stolen" it won't be confiscated and the "original" owner required to recover it. Maybe in CA or other states but not here.

In Washington, you don't have to prove you own it when it was taken from your person, they have to prove it isn't yours.

There are exceptions. As an example, if you leave a firearm behind at some gun ranges (Kenmore is one) they turn the weapon over to the PD or Sheriff's department as "Found Property". To recover it you have to prove to the Agency that you are the lawful owner. In this case it might be real handy to have a Bill of Sale handy since the State has no "registration".
 

Calvin Quint

New member
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
4
Location
Olympia, Washington, United States
Unless the firearm is listed as "stolen" it won't be confiscated and the "original" owner required to recover it. Maybe in CA or other states but not here.

In Washington, you don't have to prove you own it when it was taken from your person, they have to prove it isn't yours.

There are exceptions. As an example, if you leave a firearm behind at some gun ranges (Kenmore is one) they turn the weapon over to the PD or Sheriff's department as "Found Property". To recover it you have to prove to the Agency that you are the lawful owner. In this case it might be real handy to have a Bill of Sale handy since the State has no "registration".


Are you legally required to let the officer remove it from you. Because, for some reason they want to run it. Me personally I would consider unlawful search, and seizure.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Would someone please give me a serious answer? Why are folks so paranoid about ending up buying a stolen gun (or one supposedly used in a violent crime*) through a private sale?

Yes, BGs tend to get their guns either by stealing them or by buying them from other BGs. But we supposedly are not BGs and would not be buying from someone who even looked like they might be a BG, right? We ask questions, and occassionally ask to see DLs and/or permits/licenses if not getting a bill of sale.

So why the paranoia?

stay safe.

* - Under what circumstances - even a self-defense shooting - are the cops going to play CSI and put a slug from you gun under the microscope to compare rifling marks against some slug recovered from a crime scene?
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
I have heard stories of guys getting theirs taken away because when it was ran they are not the owner in the system, and the original owner had to go get it from the police.


Where, when, and who did it happen to? Names please.
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Are you legally required to let the officer remove it from you.


That's a question that can
only be answered in court. Ethically, are you required to, if they demand it? Yes. These disputes are not to be fought on the side of the road. That's why we have courts.
 

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
Where, when, and who did it happen to? Names please.[/COLOR]

I was threatened with just such a maneuver.

I bought a G17 from Cabela's, but apparently the form hadn't been entered into DOL yet.

I was illegally detained for OC by PCSO, and the officer gave me a rant about 'registering' my guns, and if it wasn't 'registered' to me, he would take it for safekeeping until I could 'prove' it was mine...
 

DamonK

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
585
Location
Ft. Lewis, WA
I was threatened with just such a maneuver.

I bought a G17 from Cabela's, but apparently the form hadn't been entered into DOL yet.

I was illegally detained for OC by PCSO, and the officer gave me a rant about 'registering' my guns, and if it wasn't 'registered' to me, he would take it for safekeeping until I could 'prove' it was mine...

You know what works great on LEOs breaking the law? Call the state patrol. Seriously, it's both hilarious and instructional to the local yocals. I've done it once, and warned that I would do it several times. So far it works wonders. Not saying that they are our saviors all the time, but they have all been thoroughly briefed on the OC thing.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
You know what works great on LEOs breaking the law? Call the state patrol. Seriously, it's both hilarious and instructional to the local yocals. I've done it once, and warned that I would do it several times. So far it works wonders. Not saying that they are our saviors all the time, but they have all been thoroughly briefed on the OC thing.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

They will actually dispatch a trooper to educate the city kittys on the state constitution? I never knew that. I never thought they'd be willing to approach a situation they knew little about and take your side over other officers for an event they didn't witness, that's intersting
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
This is a non-issue.

The original dealer ATF Form 4473 is merelty a record of sale; it does not convey title. period.

- most guns owned in the USA are owned thru private sales - usually multiple private sales - and even subsequent dealer sales of used guns are not trackable by the ATF because the ATF can only really track directly the manufacturer of the gun and thru that manufacturer, the first dealer it went to .

The police cannot access ATF Form 4473 records - only through proper channels and justification can law enforcment get ATF assistance in locating the original ATF 4473 of the first dealer, and then only if it was not destroyed 10 years after the sale as allowed by federal law.

Mike may I take your statement with the caveat that the gun manufacture or FFL are not volunteering to comply with a LEA's request for this information?

What I'm trying to say is does the law say the gun manufacturer or FFL cannot give out the info without justification or that the LEA cannot force it? If not this would indicate the LEA can get any of this info from a "cooperative" entity.

Unfortunately I believe the "cooperative" entity would be a more common occurrence than not.

I know my good friend who does my FFL transfers has told me of LEA's requesting information before...improperly. He has refused a few times (big 2A supporter) where it wasn't done right. I wonder how often that happens...
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
Mike may I take your statement with the caveat that the gun manufacture or FFL are not volunteering to comply with a LEA's request for this information?

What I'm trying to say is does the law say the gun manufacturer or FFL cannot give out the info without justification or that the LEA cannot force it? If not this would indicate the LEA can get any of this info from a "cooperative" entity.

Unfortunately I believe the "cooperative" entity would be a more common occurrence than not.

I know my good friend who does my FFL transfers has told me of LEA's requesting information before...improperly. He has refused a few times (big 2A supporter) where it wasn't done right. I wonder how often that happens...

Well a Washington State Patrol detective requested reams of information on anyone who purchased AR-15 recievers last year from dozens of FFLs, the FFLs refused to provide the info, although several of them did state that they would have had the queries been more specific as opposed to a fishing expedition. So it really depends on the case.
 

DamonK

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
585
Location
Ft. Lewis, WA
They will actually dispatch a trooper to educate the city kittys on the state constitution? I never knew that. I never thought they'd be willing to approach a situation they knew little about and take your side over other officers for an event they didn't witness, that's intersting

No, you stay professional, let they dispatch know exactly what's going on without sounding like a crazy person, and when the patrolman get's there, as long as there's no ongoing crime, it's you're free to go. Again, you have to be very sure that you are indeed in the right. But yes it does work. Now go be a smart ass somewhere else.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
No, you stay professional, let they dispatch know exactly what's going on without sounding like a crazy person, and when the patrolman get's there, as long as there's no ongoing crime, it's you're free to go. Again, you have to be very sure that you are indeed in the right. But yes it does work. Now go be a smart ass somewhere else.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

Huh? Where was I being a smartass, I am seriously amazed that another LEA will send in an officer to tell another agency they're wrong and enter a scenario they weren't involved in, that's wondering out loud, I always thought telling on other agencies wasn't going to help you.

I apologize if it sounded that way, I really didn't mean it too.
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
You know what works great on LEOs breaking the law? Call the state patrol.

I highly doubt it. Please provide a who-what-when-where, relating to when this actually worked.

No Washington police agency has command authority over any other. The State Patrol is not superior to any other police agency in this state. All officers working for all agencies in this state (excluding federal) are simply commissioned officers. Again, none has any command authority over any other. Titles of rank only apply within individual agencies.

You don't need a trooper to report a violation of the law by a police officer. Any commissioned officer will do - they all have the same authority.
 
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amzbrady

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
3,521
Location
Marysville, Washington, USA
I was threatened with just such a maneuver.

I bought a G17 from Cabela's, but apparently the form hadn't been entered into DOL yet.

I was illegally detained for OC by PCSO, and the officer gave me a rant about 'registering' my guns, and if it wasn't 'registered' to me, he would take it for safekeeping until I could 'prove' it was mine...

So... what did you do?
 
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