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Thread: No Firearms Sign at Grayson Lake

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    No Firearms Sign at Grayson Lake

    I went to a Family Reunion this weekend at Grayson Lake State Park.

    This "No Firearms" greeted me on the backside of the dam.

    There is another one just like it as you turn in to the Marina.

    Am I correct that these are not lawful?
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    Last edited by rscottie; 09-25-2012 at 12:35 PM.

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    You can't have firearms around the damn, but the marina is state owned and maintained, not ACoE maintained. The sign at the marina is unlawful.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    This sign was going down in to the picnic area below the dam.

    There are shelter houses, hiking trails, and many people fish in the stream down there.
    Last edited by rscottie; 09-25-2012 at 12:35 PM.

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    Congress had a fix in the works for this--like lifting restrictions against carry in the national parks--but it seems like the bill can't get/keep traction.

    By the way you guys keep using a cussword--a structure built to hold back a body of water is a "dam".

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    Sign does not say "no criminals" huh? dam dam dam dam dam just testing .... "dam"

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Dam, I mean darn.

    This is a State Park and my understanding was that guns are legal in State Parks.

    If they are using the dam as an excuse, how far does the restriction zone go?

    I can understand security near the actual dam but these are picnic areas not on/near the dam itself.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    I can understand security near the actual dam but these are picnic areas not on/near the dam itself.
    How so? I cannot destroy a damn dam with a firearm.

    Also, don't you think any terrorist organization can find a better target than Grayson lake or most other COE property? I can do more damage with less anything driving 20 min to Ashland Oil.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    Dam, I mean darn.

    This is a State Park and my understanding was that guns are legal in State Parks.

    If they are using the dam as an excuse, how far does the restriction zone go?

    I can understand security near the actual dam but these are picnic areas not on/near the dam itself.
    Carry in state parks is completely legal. However, if the ACoE maintains any portion of a lake then the portion that they control is off limits for carry.

    All the trails can be carried on, you just can't carry near the dam or picnic area that the ACoE maintains. If you want to walk the trails park somewhere else. There is nothing I want to see near the dam, so I stay away. I go to the marina, boat ramps, camp ground, and other areas around the lake. You cannot be denied your right to carry as long as you stay out of the dam area.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    Dam, I mean darn.

    This is a State Park and my understanding was that guns are legal in State Parks.

    If they are using the dam as an excuse, how far does the restriction zone go?

    I can understand security near the actual dam but these are picnic areas not on/near the dam itself.
    Sir, it looks and sounds like you're dealing with the same exact situation that we encounter around the Jenny Wiley State Park. It is fully legal to carry openly or concealed in and around the State Park area, including Dewey Lake but as soon as you approach the Dewey Dam, specifically as you start down the hil into the spillway area, you encounter the evil ACoE "No Gun" sign! If this is the case there, then you can legally carry ANYWHERE that the ACoE has not posted! It is legal to carry in the State Parks, perse. It is legal to even carry in National Park, thanks to of all people, Obama! But there's still an issue with the ACoE! There was supposedly some legislation that was in the works, as mentioned above, that would change this No Guns foolishness in the ACoE controlled areas but it seems to have faltered in the past couple of years.
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Whats the punishment for carrying in an ACoE area? Can local law enforement enforce this or would it take a higher up?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

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    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Carry in state parks is completely legal. However, if the ACoE maintains any portion of a lake then the portion that they control is off limits for carry.

    All the trails can be carried on, you just can't carry near the dam or picnic area that the ACoE maintains. If you want to walk the trails park somewhere else. There is nothing I want to see near the dam, so I stay away. I go to the marina, boat ramps, camp ground, and other areas around the lake. You cannot be denied your right to carry as long as you stay out of the dam area.
    All the things you've desribed here Glockster are the very reasons I stay away from Paintsville Lake will no longer have ANYTHING to do with them or their lake! The ACoE has there signs set before you even reach the dam, the trails, the sights or the marina! There's NOWHERE you can go in Paintsville Lake proper that a gun owner wouldn't be violating the ACoE law.

    There is one interesting fact though, there's a trail that you can get on that is outside (no ACoE signage) that will lead right back into the lake are and near the "ranger" building and straight onto the dam. I've walked that trail a couple times and coming in the "backway" on this trail could lead to some serious issues with ACoE if someone wasn't made aware previously.
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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Whats the punishment for carrying in an ACoE area? Can local law enforement enforce this or would it take a higher up?
    OK, I'm sure that there could be alot more but on short notice, this is all I could locate and it's from another weapons forum.

    "The penalty can be pretty steep: up to $5000 fine and up to 6 months in prison."

    SOURCE: http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_...roperties.html
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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    I assume the ACoE is the Corps of Engineers?

    So no one has defined how much area they can claim around a dam in order to keep out firearms?
    Last edited by rscottie; 09-25-2012 at 06:25 PM.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    "The penalty can be pretty steep: up to $5000 fine and up to 6 months in prison."
    WOW... I'm gonna have to plead the 5th from this point on but f**king wow!!!!
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
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    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    I assume the ACoE is the Corps of Engineers?

    So no one has defined how much area they can claim around a dam in order to keep out firearms?
    Yes it is the corps. I don't believe there is a defined area that I know of, but as long as you are not on the dam, or around the picnic area that is operated by the corps then you will be fine. I have never noticed a sign upon entering the marina. Could you tell me where it is located? They cannot ban carry at the marina because the corps has nothing to do with it -- it is entirely operated by the state. If they are banning firearms at the lake (other than the dam area) then a few phone calls need to be made to the Kentucky Parks department.

    Perhaps this will help:

    http://www.lrh.usace.army.mil/Missio...aysonLake.aspx

    As you can see, under "General Information" it plainly states that the marina is not operated by the ACoE. The only parts operated by them are the area that you described, which goes down into the dam area where the picnic shelters and such are.

    Here is another page that is probably even more helpful! It plainly says what is controlled by the corps and what isn't with a red marker.

    http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/vis...cfm?Id=H106790

    It seems the two small trails you were speaking of are operated by the ACoE so they are OFF limits with firearms. All of the other trails at the lake are unrestricted though, and carry is allowed.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 09-25-2012 at 08:27 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    That area where the picnic shelter houses are and parking lots is definitely not a place I would want to be without access to a firearm as it is very secluded.

    How does the Corps of Engineers circumvent not only the Bill of Rights but also our Kentucky Constitution?

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Yes it is the corps. I don't believe there is a defined area that I know of, but as long as you are not on the dam, or around the picnic area that is operated by the corps then you will be fine. I have never noticed a sign upon entering the marina. Could you tell me where it is located? They cannot ban carry at the marina because the corps has nothing to do with it -- it is entirely operated by the state. If they are banning firearms at the lake (other than the dam area) then a few phone calls need to be made to the Kentucky Parks department.

    Perhaps this will help:

    http://www.lrh.usace.army.mil/Missio...aysonLake.aspx

    As you can see, under "General Information" it plainly states that the marina is not operated by the ACoE. The only parts operated by them are the area that you described, which goes down into the dam area where the picnic shelters and such are.

    Here is another page that is probably even more helpful! It plainly says what is controlled by the corps and what isn't with a red marker.

    http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/vis...cfm?Id=H106790

    It seems the two small trails you were speaking of are operated by the ACoE so they are OFF limits with firearms. All of the other trails at the lake are unrestricted though, and carry is allowed.
    The sign entering the Marina is right after you turn in the driveway off the main rd (Rt 7?). It is maybe 20-30 yards in. It is the same as the sign I posted.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Would these signs apply to someone with a CCDW Permit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    Sir, it looks and sounds like you're dealing with the same exact situation that we encounter around the Jenny Wiley State Park. It is fully legal to carry openly or concealed in and around the State Park area, including Dewey Lake but as soon as you approach the Dewey Dam, specifically as you start down the hil into the spillway area, you encounter the evil ACoE "No Gun" sign! If this is the case there, then you can legally carry ANYWHERE that the ACoE has not posted! It is legal to carry in the State Parks, perse. It is legal to even carry in National Park, thanks to of all people, Obama! But there's still an issue with the ACoE! There was supposedly some legislation that was in the works, as mentioned above, that would change this No Guns foolishness in the ACoE controlled areas but it seems to have faltered in the past couple of years.
    I must correct the Obama statement. Our lovely president didn't have anything to do with allowing firearms in national parks; it was the republicans in the House that placed a rider into a piece of legislation that Obama wanted to become law, and in order for it to become law he had to sign it with the rider there. Obama did nothing, and I am surprised he even signed the bill. It was not a single piece of legislation that passed, and in fact the carry provision didn't have anything to do with the bill it was attatched to. President Obama signed the Credit Card Holders’ Bill of Rights on May 22, 2009, and this was in an amendment to the bill. If you want to give credit, then that credit is owed to Senator Tom Coburn of OK.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    The sign entering the Marina is right after you turn in the driveway off the main rd (Rt 7?). It is maybe 20-30 yards in. It is the same as the sign I posted.
    I don't believe that sign is enforceable. The corps doesn't do anything beyond the dam, so I don't see this sign applying since it is on the other side of the lake and across the highway. People live at the marina so I don't see how they could ban firearms there, and I know it is maintained by the state because I have done things there when I worked for the D.O.T. The marina it says is operated by a private business, but I know the parking lot and such are state maintained.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    That area where the picnic shelter houses are and parking lots is definitely not a place I would want to be without access to a firearm as it is very secluded.

    How does the Corps of Engineers circumvent not only the Bill of Rights but also our Kentucky Constitution?
    This is a very small infringment when compared to others that are committed by the federal government. The government has nearly circumvented every constitutional right we have, and they have destroyed due process completely.

    But to answer your question, they do so because the federal government does not care what the Constitution says, and the state of Kentucky has allowed the federal government to control lands they own and operate inside Kentucky any way they please. Look into the Kentucky constitution and you will notice there are sections that concern this very topic. The state should say to them either obey the Constitution or get out, but that will never happen.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    You know, when there are discussions about gun rights here on this board, we in KY are generally better off than most in parts of the country like Washington DC, Illinois, Californian, New Jersey, etc.

    So this sort of hits home and really upsets me.

    While Grayson Lake is not known as a major crime zone, down below the damn is quite secluded and I would not want to be there without my firearm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Whats the punishment for carrying in an ACoE area? Can local law enforement enforce this or would it take a higher up?


    I would tend to doubt that local law enforcement are up to speed with regards to those regulations. After all we see examples on this forum everyday that shows they aren't always that good at knowing certain local and state laws. And best I can tell the AC of E has no enforcement officers of their own, I think they'd have to call local yokels or the FBI or U.S. Marshal's office if heaven forbid it was reported that someone was observed carrying a bomb/gun/big pointy stick towards one of their dams.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    While Grayson Lake is not known as a major crime zone, down below the damn is quite secluded and I would not want to be there without my firearm.
    Crime should only be a small part of it. In eastern Kentucky we have bobcats and coyotes running wild. Then you have have stray dogs and the most deadly wild animal, Deer.

    I can do very little actual damage to a well maintained damn with a fully loaded firearm, but I could easily defend myself from wild animals or criminals with one. This needs to be fixed.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Crime should only be a small part of it. In eastern Kentucky we have bobcats and coyotes running wild. Then you have have stray dogs and the most deadly wild animal, Deer.

    I can do very little actual damage to a well maintained damn with a fully loaded firearm, but I could easily defend myself from wild animals or criminals with one. This needs to be fixed.
    Good Point, I forgot threats of the four legged kind.

    I did hear that bear sightings have increased in E. KY. I also heard that something even more dangerous has been spotted, wild hogs.

    So, even more reason not to go out in the woods "alone".

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