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Thread: CCing at work

  1. #1
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    CCing at work

    Hi all,

    I'm guessing a lot of you, like myself, cannot OC at work. So I bought a CC holster for when I'm there. Unfortunately, I forgot that I have to go to the Post Office everyday as part of my job. Therefore, I would need to remove my firearm and hide it everyday. I was hoping that some of you might have a similar experience where you had to temporarily remove your gun at work.

    These are the options I can think of:
    • Not carry at all
    • Leave the gun in the car (8 floors up in a parking garage), wait for two hours (when the mail is gauranteed to come) and then get my gun after I pick up the mail.
    • Hide the gun in a small portable safe in my office
    • Hide the gun in my laptop case in my office
    • Break the law and carry into the Post Office


    Obiously, the first and last options aren't that great. And the last option is actually the safest

    The likeliness of a coworker finding the gun in my office is minimal. I would only be gone for 5 minutes. My concern would be that someone would barge into my office and see me holstering/removing my weapon.

    Anyway, none of the options that I can think up are that great. Anybody have any suggestions from past experiences?

    Thanks!

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigil View Post
    Hi all,

    I'm guessing a lot of you, like myself, cannot OC at work. So I bought a CC holster for when I'm there. Unfortunately, I forgot that I have to go to the Post Office everyday as part of my job. Therefore, I would need to remove my firearm and hide it everyday. I was hoping that some of you might have a similar experience where you had to temporarily remove your gun at work.

    These are the options I can think of:
    • Not carry at all
    • Leave the gun in the car (8 floors up in a parking garage), wait for two hours (when the mail is gauranteed to come) and then get my gun after I pick up the mail.
    • Hide the gun in a small portable safe in my office
    • Hide the gun in my laptop case in my office
    • Break the law and carry into the Post Office


    Obiously, the first and last options aren't that great. And the last option is actually the safest

    The likeliness of a coworker finding the gun in my office is minimal. I would only be gone for 5 minutes. My concern would be that someone would barge into my office and see me holstering/removing my weapon.

    Anyway, none of the options that I can think up are that great. Anybody have any suggestions from past experiences?

    Thanks!
    Why do you need to go to the Post Office?
    There are several other alternatives to the actual Post Office. For example, Office Depot, takes USPS packages and letters.
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    CCing at work

    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Why do you need to go to the Post Office?
    There are several other alternatives to the actual Post Office. For example, Office Depot, takes USPS packages and letters.
    He said he has to wait for the mail, which I assume he has to pick up from the post office. Personally, if it's only two hours I would invest in a decent car safe and lock it up when you go to the post office. Does your employer allow you to CC?
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    gogodawgs -

    I work at an organization that receives it's contributions, invoices, and other items at the Post Office. It's my job to handle the contributions and get the other mail to other staff members. I'm not going to be able to use another service .

    thebigsd -

    Correct. I start work at 8:30 and pick up the mail at about 10:00, as that's when the mail is guaranteed to be in the PO box. I quite honestly don't know if I'm allowed to carry at work or not. We are a really small organization (less than 10 people) and we have no real formal policy on...anything. Everybody just comes in and does their job.

    My boss is somewhat unpredictable in terms of being nice and unreasonable, so I figured that the better approach would be to not tell anyone that I was carrying .

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    Regular Member 1911er's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigil View Post
    Hi all,

    I'm guessing a lot of you, like myself, cannot OC at work. So I bought a CC holster for when I'm there. Unfortunately, I forgot that I have to go to the Post Office everyday as part of my job. Therefore, I would need to remove my firearm and hide it everyday. I was hoping that some of you might have a similar experience where you had to temporarily remove your gun at work.

    These are the options I can think of:
    • Not carry at all
    • Leave the gun in the car (8 floors up in a parking garage), wait for two hours (when the mail is gauranteed to come) and then get my gun after I pick up the mail.
    • Hide the gun in a small portable safe in my office
    • Hide the gun in my laptop case in my office
    • Break the law and carry into the Post Office


    Obiously, the first and last options aren't that great. And the last option is actually the safest

    The likeliness of a coworker finding the gun in my office is minimal. I would only be gone for 5 minutes. My concern would be that someone would barge into my office and see me holstering/removing my weapon.

    Anyway, none of the options that I can think up are that great. Anybody have any suggestions from past experiences?

    Thanks!
    Seeing that your last option is not only not legal. But it is against fed carry laws. I would not take the chance! Do to overpowerd egos of Homeland security, if you get caught carring in A post office not only will you lose your weapon but probably do some serious time. And never be able to own another firearm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Why do you need to go to the Post Office?
    There are several other alternatives to the actual Post Office. For example, Office Depot, takes USPS packages and letters.
    Here is another question...it may be a fine distiction, but here goes: The OP references the Post Office, but I wonder if he means access to his PO Box?

    I have seen at most post offices where the layout of the facility allows an almost "public access" space to the PO boxes that is exclusive from the postal service. There are doors (lockable) that prevent access to the postal desk, employee's etc., and allow for access hours to your PO box when the "post office" is closed.

    Maybe this is too fine a hair to be split under HS....but if the OP's PO bx is accessed this way, does anyone think it may provide cover for his cover?

    opinions?

    Here is an interesting one, but leaves me confused and my sidearm locked in my vehicle:


    By Ken Hanson, Esq.
    Legislative Chair
    Buckeye Firearms Association

    There is considerable confusion over whether an Ohio Concealed Handgun Licensee (CHL) can carry a concealed firearm at the post office. This confusion mostly centers around the wording on the signs posted at the post office. The signs quote two sections of federal regulation - 18 USC 930 and 39 CFR 232.1.

    Looking at 18 USC 930, it would appear, at first blush, that carrying firearms is prohibited. That section provides:
    § 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    Release date: 2004-08-06

    a. Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

    So part of the confusion is rooted in the wording of this section. The prohibition applies to "Federal facilit(ies)" except as provide for in subsection (d). Subsection (d) provides:
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to-

    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

    Many people have seized upon (d)(3) with the argument that they have a CHL, so their carrying of a firearm is an "other lawful purpose" and therefore they are exempt from the sign. This is problematic for several reasons. First, 39 USC 410 exempts Post Offices from 18 USC 930 (being a statute dealing with Federal facilities in general.) 39 USC 410, specifically dealing with post offices, states:
    § 410. Application of other laws

    Release date: 2003-06-24

    (a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.

    (b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:

    (1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;

    (2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;

    Thus it would appear, by operation of 39 USC 410, that 18 USC 930, a law that deals generally with Federal property, does not apply to the Powers of the Postal Service. Rather, the only provisions of 18 USC that would apply are those specific to the post office e.g. Theft of Mail, Robbing Post Offices, Stealing Postal Money Orders etc. Further evidence of the proposition that 18 USC 930 does not apply to post offices is in the numbering of the aforementioned 39 CFR 232.1. As we will later examine, 39 CFR 232.1 clearly prohibits carrying firearms. CFR sections typically draw their numbering from the underlying laws that they are promulgated under, although there are numerous exceptions. The numbering of 39 CFR would be further evidence that 39 USC controls the situation, and not 18 USC.

    The second problem with relying on 18 USC 930(d)(3) is that this section in no way EMPOWERS anyone to carry a gun; rather, that section simply states that 18 USC 930 does not apply to someone is lawfully carrying a gun incident to some lawful purpose. In Ohio's law, there is a big difference between something NOT BEING PROHIBITED and something BEING SPECIFICALLY LICENSED. Just because a statute says that certain conduct is not prohibited by that particular statute does not automatically equate into authority to engage in the conduct.

    This is an important distinction, because the other part of the post office sign cites 39 CFR 232.1, which clearly does prohibit guns in post offices. In pertinent part, it states:
    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
    The argument advanced against 39 CFR 232.1 is that a regulation cannot conflict with a statute, and indeed, a later portion, 39 CFR 232.1(p), states "Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated." So would 39 CFR 232.1 be in conflict if it is read to prohibit a CHL from carrying at the post office? It does not appear that this would be the case.

    First, as we previously examined, 18 USC 930 does not apply to a post office. Second, as we previously examined, even if 18 USC 930 DID apply to post offices, remember that 18 USC 930(d) merely states that the lawful carrying of a firearm is not prohibited by 18 USC 930(a), not that the lawful carrying of a firearm is allowed. This being the case, what is 39 CFR 232.1 in conflict with? I think it is difficult to argue it is in conflict with anything.

    This being the case, at a minimum, we have a situation where there is a valid RULE prohibiting the carrying of firearms, and properly posted signs evidencing this fact. That being the case, an Ohio CHL is prohibited from carrying at the post office by Ohio's criminal trespass. If an expansive reading is given to 39 CFR 232.1 and it is considered a FEDERAL LAW, and/or there is a federal law that makes it a crime to violate a provision of the CFR, then carrying at a post office would be prohibited by 2923.126(B)(10), meaning that the Ohio CHL would be committing a felony by carrying at the post office.

    I do not want to be right about the answer to this question, because I personally see no problem with a CHL carrying in a post office. However, I think some of the information/discussion going on in forums has the potential to expose the Ohio CHL to a rude awakening.
    Last edited by jt59; 09-24-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911er View Post
    Seeing that your last option is not only not legal. But it is against fed carry laws. I would not take the chance! Do to overpowerd egos of Homeland security, if you get caught carring in A post office not only will you lose your weapon but probably do some serious time. And never be able to own another firearm.
    And here we have the inevitable failure of the text-based sarcasm. I would never carry in a Post Office. Murphy and his stupid law would demand that I be caught 1 foot in the door .

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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to-

    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
    How would (d)(1) interact with those states where citizen's arrest powers are actually codified in the law? For example, Texas:

    CHAPTER 14. ARREST WITHOUT WARRANT

    Art. 14.01. OFFENSE WITHIN VIEW. (a) A peace officer or any other person, may, without a warrant, arrest an offender when the offense is committed in his presence or within his view, if the offense is one classed as a felony or as an offense against the public peace.
    Every single citizen is authorized to prevent a violation of the law in Texas. Not just peace officers (police).


    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    This being the case, at a minimum, we have a situation where there is a valid RULE prohibiting the carrying of firearms, and properly posted signs evidencing this fact. That being the case, an Ohio CHL is prohibited from carrying at the post office by Ohio's criminal trespass. If an expansive reading is given to 39 CFR 232.1 and it is considered a FEDERAL LAW, and/or there is a federal law that makes it a crime to violate a provision of the CFR, then carrying at a post office would be prohibited by 2923.126(B)(10), meaning that the Ohio CHL would be committing a felony by carrying at the post office.

    I do not want to be right about the answer to this question, because I personally see no problem with a CHL carrying in a post office. However, I think some of the information/discussion going on in forums has the potential to expose the Ohio CHL to a rude awakening.
    Why is this in the Washington forum, not Ohio?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Does your employer allow you to CC?
    I always wondered in gun manufacturer's allowed their employees to carry...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigil View Post
    gogodawgs -

    I work at an organization that receives it's contributions, invoices, and other items at the Post Office. It's my job to handle the contributions and get the other mail to other staff members. I'm not going to be able to use another service .

    thebigsd -

    Correct. I start work at 8:30 and pick up the mail at about 10:00, as that's when the mail is guaranteed to be in the PO box. I quite honestly don't know if I'm allowed to carry at work or not. We are a really small organization (less than 10 people) and we have no real formal policy on...anything. Everybody just comes in and does their job.

    My boss is somewhat unpredictable in terms of being nice and unreasonable, so I figured that the better approach would be to not tell anyone that I was carrying .

    Do you walk or drive to the PO? I am not allowed to carry at work, so I leave my weapon in the car (secure parking lot so not concerned about a break in). When I go to the PO, I slip it into the map pocket of my drivers door. Very discrete and unlikely that anyone will notice. When I return to the car, I put it back in my pocket. My usual carry is a J-frame in my pocket.

    As to not knowing the rule at work, simple. If here isn't a rule that says "no" then the answer is "yes". Don't ask, don't tell. The worst that can happen if you are made is they can make a rule and tell you don't do it again. If you ask before hand, expect them to say no.

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    I also have a work place that doesn't have an official policy on firearm carry and don't want to find out if they'll say no. I see it as being easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. If I were to get caught carrying if I did it, I'd be able to claim stupidity and hope they were either cool with it or forgiving and understanding.


    As for the Post Office, I used to have to go to the post office to pick up mail for the company pretty much every day. I had to do the option of leaving it in the car while I was in there. If I had only had to go to the PO Boxes, I'd have been fine to carry, but I also had to pick up and sign for the Certifieds so it was a no-no.

    The reason I'd be okay to carry at the PO Boxes is because the "No Dangerous Weapons" sign is not at the first entrance but the second. The PO Box section of the Post Office I had to go to was open 24/7 while the section with employees had business hours.

    Next time you have to go, if you don't have to sign for anything, check for signs on the entrances. You may be able to just go to the PO Box section and carry away lawfully.


    18 USC § 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
    (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
    (e)
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
    (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
    (f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
    (g) As used in this section:
    (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
    (2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
    (3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    I also have a work place that doesn't have an official policy on firearm carry and don't want to find out if they'll say no. I see it as being easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. If I were to get caught carrying if I did it, I'd be able to claim stupidity and hope they were either cool with it or forgiving and understanding.


    As for the Post Office, I used to have to go to the post office to pick up mail for the company pretty much every day. I had to do the option of leaving it in the car while I was in there. If I had only had to go to the PO Boxes, I'd have been fine to carry, but I also had to pick up and sign for the Certifieds so it was a no-no.

    The reason I'd be okay to carry at the PO Boxes is because the "No Dangerous Weapons" sign is not at the first entrance but the second. The PO Box section of the Post Office I had to go to was open 24/7 while the section with employees had business hours.

    Next time you have to go, if you don't have to sign for anything, check for signs on the entrances. You may be able to just go to the PO Box section and carry away lawfully.


    18 USC § 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities...

    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

    Except you are overlooking 39 CFR 232.1

    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons
    Read all of 39 CFR 232.1 - The rules for Post Offices are different than other Federal facilities. Even having it in your car in the parking lot is a violation.
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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    I believe the sign posted bans firearms on thier property, not just in their building. So I dont think even leaving it in your vehicle if you are parked in their parking lot is legal. Ocean Shores post office was like that with no on street parking, I had to park in the field across the street and walk over, I didnt have to worry about taking my holster off that way.
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    Since your car is private property and unless they have a warrant they don't get to search the car unless you consent, I am not sure if the issue is a real concern. I suppose if someone hits your car and a door pops open you have an issue, but then you already have it since the car is no longer locked and your loaded weapon is in it (9.41.050). You could also be hit by a meteor , your mileage may vary.

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    So I've gone to the PO the last couple of days...there is no sign.

    There used to be a sign at the entrance I used. The one with the revolver being crossed out. I checked the other entrances, and there are no signs.

    Odd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigil View Post
    So I've gone to the PO the last couple of days...there is no sign.

    There used to be a sign at the entrance I used. The one with the revolver being crossed out. I checked the other entrances, and there are no signs.

    Odd.
    Is the property leased?
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    Here's a link. It looks like the property was bought and leased out:

    http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/0...-building.html

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigil View Post
    Here's a link. It looks like the property was bought and leased out:

    http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/0...-building.html
    Interesting. I know there has been some discussion about it not being Federal Property and thus not prohibited when the USPS leases the property.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Interesting. I know there has been some discussion about it not being Federal Property and thus not prohibited when the USPS leases the property.
    I certainly wouldn't complain. I do find it interesting that the No Gun sign leaves at about the same time that the Tacoma School of the Arts opened. I know the sign mentioned Post Office property; perhaps that's why it was taken down.

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