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Thread: Library's as political subdivisions

  1. #1
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    Library's as political subdivisions

    I've been working on getting signage taken down at county fairs. Right now I've got a certified letter off to Lorain County AG. Society explaining to them how they are a political subdivision, and not private. I am also assisting another man with Tusc. County fairs too.

    Then it dawned on me as hard as it is to figure out who owns what, public library's came to mind, with their cute little 'no guns' signs everywhere. The old librarians walking around with their noses at about 2 O'Clock, always going 'Shhh!"

    The best information I've been able to find is that the Library here in Vermilion does get public money, do have, and make levies, collect property taxes, they would qualify as political subdivisions, and as such Ohio law.

    Like the county fairs, some buildings would have to be posted if compensated agents of the PSD work there. The more I thought about this the best I could do is get the parking lots signs taken down, and I don't think there are any.

    Just thinking out loud, have a nice day!

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Open vs. Concealed?
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    All public libraries I know are publically owned, and subject to posting the "no guns" signage required by the state.

    Then, like publically owned buildings, we get into the ORC vs signage verbiage prohibitions - CC only vs CC & OC. That issue/battle/can of worms, given the flaccidness of Ohio's RKBA orgs is one I personally am unwilling to engage in at the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    All public libraries I know are publically owned, and subject to posting the "no guns" signage required by the state.

    Then, like publically owned buildings, we get into the ORC vs signage verbiage prohibitions - CC only vs CC & OC. That issue/battle/can of worms, given the flaccidness of Ohio's RKBA orgs is one I personally am unwilling to engage in at the moment.
    Despite the lack of a specific prohibition or penalty under RC 2923.1212, I think there is a very palpable risk of a charge and conviction for Criminal Trespass for entering a government building while openly carrying a firearm. Depending on the circumstances, there is also a significant risk of a charge and conviction for Inducing Panic.

    As to the Criminal Trespass charge, there is a possibility of a charge under RC 2911.21(A)(4) - as is specifically designated for sign postings by private parties under RC 2923.126(C)(3)(a) - but there is an even greater possibility of a charge under RC 2911.21(A)(2). Under the latter provision, the lawful restriction designated by the sign would be a mode of "unarmed." The signage is required by law, and if someone on the staff (like a librarian) enforces it, there is a strong probability that one would be convicted, and that the conviction would be upheld on appeal.

    As to the charge of Inducing Panic, before anyone starts squawking like an African parrot, "You can't charge Inducing Panic for a lawful activity!" consider this:

    • The lawfulness of open carry in a government building in Ohio is very much subject to question. It's not the same as walking down the sidewalk with a holstered handgun and hoping that some cop will turn you into a YouTube star. Any charge of Inducing Panic would probably be filed in conjunction with a charge of Criminal Trespass.
    • As to the legitimacy of "serious public inconvenience or alarm" on the part of the staff or patrons, remember that they saw the "no guns" sign when they walked into the door. They assume that, unless someone is wearing a badge, that person should not be carrying a gun into the building. If a person comes into the building openly carrying a firearm, in contravention of the clearly posted sign and with no indication of legal authority to disregard the sign, they may reasonably assume that the person is up to no good, and their alarm will probably be considered justifiable.

    Just some food for thought.

    I realize that the Attorney General could be asked for an opinion on this issue, or even better, we could ask the General Assembly to clarify the law. However, as I have said before, if we pursue that path, I fear that their answer will not be the one we were hoping to hear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    All public libraries I know are publically owned, and subject to posting the "no guns" signage required by the state.

    Then, like publically owned buildings, we get into the ORC vs signage verbiage prohibitions - CC only vs CC & OC. That issue/battle/can of worms, given the flaccidness of Ohio's RKBA orgs is one I personally am unwilling to engage in at the moment.
    I remembered somewhere in the past it was brought up about libraries posting. I still don't care to be the test case, where the law is not favorable. I'd much rather get the signs taken down at the county fairs right now.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werz View Post
    ...It's not the same as walking down the sidewalk with a holstered handgun and hoping that some cop will turn you into a YouTube star...
    I personally know no such person on these (or other) fora, save one who recently lost a federal appeals case.

    Is this your opinion of the posters here?


    Good points otherwise, however, if one is asked to leave by a staff member, how would criminal tresspass charges succeed?
    Last edited by BB62; 09-24-2012 at 07:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Werz
    ...It's not the same as walking down the sidewalk with a holstered handgun and hoping that some cop will turn you into a YouTube star...
    I personally know no such person on these (or other) fora, save one who recently lost a federal appeals case.

    Is this your opinion of the posters here?


    Good points otherwise, however, if one is asked to leave by a staff member, how would criminal tresspass charges succeed?
    I don't know whether or not there's anyone here like that. Those videos are quite abundant on YouTube. There's that guy from Maine who was featured on the OFCC forum citing "U.S. v. DeBerry." That had to be something he got from an Internet forum, and I have seen that case referred to in these forums multiple times, although using that case as persuasive precedent is about as useless as a teat on a boar hog.

    If you're asked to leave, and you do, you might avoid arrest, but the signs on government buildings are usually pretty blatant, so even though you leave when asked, it might not save you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Werz View Post
    As to the charge of Inducing Panic, before anyone starts squawking like an African parrot, "You can't charge Inducing Panic for a lawful activity!" consider this:

    <Awk!> If you get a big enough turn out at an OC event, the police won't dare arrest anybodyif no laws are actually being broken! <Awk!>

    Yeah I do squawk that a bunch...when do I get a cracker?

  9. #9
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    PM me an address, Brian. I'll send you some crackers!
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  10. #10
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    That's appreciated MWSY, but living close to the Kentucky border as I do, crackers are never in short supply.

    Seriously, however, I maintain that a well-attended OC event at a big public library would call the collective bluffs of our self appointed goobermint overlords. Would such ostentatious doings on our part backfire with the state legislature with regards to carry at governement buildings? Given previous experience with OC events, my opinion is 'No, heck no!'
    Last edited by Brian D.; 09-28-2012 at 07:40 PM.

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    And who are patrons at libraries? Small children. Look mommy, he has a gun. SWARM SWARM is going to be the response.

    Should libraries be no gun zone? No. Would they be declared no gun zones? Maybe.

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