• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

OC or not to OC

Rich B

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
2,909
Location
North Branford, Connecticut, USA
Rich is highly experienced in such encounters (unfortunately). A good example of how to carry and deal with police. I think he has been arrested once or twice for bogus charges and I think he has filed federal case(s) in the past, although I cannot recall the outcome of the cases or they may still be pending.

I will be filling out more on ctcarry.com when I have time, but other people's cases are more important at the moment. But you can find depositions for Burgess v Wallingford under 'litigation' right now.

withregardstorights.com is my personal site where I have chronicled some of my adventures.
 

carolina guy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,737
Location
Concord, NC
I am not sure it happens nearly as much as you might think.

I would be willing to bet you that the "911 caller" is not infrequently fabricated if the LEO wants to engage an OC who has done nothing illegal, but has somehow tripped his trigger. Remember, they have no obligation to tell you the truth...yet the serfs are obligated to tell THEM the truth (if you choose to speak at all).

Re-watching Braveheart puts a new light on some of this...
 

cteaglesfan

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
133
Location
Branford
I would be willing to bet you that the "911 caller" is not infrequently fabricated if the LEO wants to engage an OC who has done nothing illegal, but has somehow tripped his trigger. Remember, they have no obligation to tell you the truth...yet the serfs are obligated to tell THEM the truth (if you choose to speak at all).

Re-watching Braveheart puts a new light on some of this...


Maybe its just as simple as tapping an officer on the shoulder or the officer noticing it themselves.

To be honest I have a little bit of empathy for the NH police because they have to worry about law breakers with guns. I just truly think their barking up the wrong tree by putting soooooo much energy into harrassing OCers.

Do you guys honestly believe that they fear us for some stupid reason or is it that they want to be the only ones with guns????

Neither makes any sense.
 

Rich B

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
2,909
Location
North Branford, Connecticut, USA
putting soooooo much energy into harrassing OCers.

I am not sure what you mean. I don't know of anyone in NH who has been harassed by a LEO while OCing. I wasn't even detained in my incident in NH.

Which OCers are being harassed?



Also, you may want to check out these threads:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?105543-Police-cant-require-proof-of-permit-of-OCer

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?106253-Goldberg-V-Glastonbury-RAS
 
Last edited:

cteaglesfan

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
133
Location
Branford
I am not sure what you mean. I don't know of anyone in NH who has been harassed by a LEO while OCing. I wasn't even detained in my incident in NH.

Which OCers are being harassed?



Also, you may want to check out these threads:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?105543-Police-cant-require-proof-of-permit-of-OCer

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?106253-Goldberg-V-Glastonbury-RAS

In all fairness. it's the harassment one would expect from them. But that's just me assuming
 

cteaglesfan

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
133
Location
Branford
After looking at that first link you sent I can agree with the LEO. And I would honestly have no problem pulling out my permit for that purpose. The LEO looks at it, tells me to have a nice day. But I also have to respect the rights of those that refuse to do it because they simply dont have to.

Excuse me being on the fence on so many issues :banghead:
 

Rich B

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
2,909
Location
North Branford, Connecticut, USA
After looking at that first link you sent I can agree with the LEO.

Then you read the entire thread because that is not what is ultimately decided by the officer in that thread.

Police need RAS to stop you, plain and simple. The simple carry of a firearm unconcealed is not RAS. An officer needs more mitigating circumstances to detain someone lawfully than just a holstered firearm.


Now this is what I had said about knowing where you stand on the issues you will face. You may be of the mind that you will show your permit to anyone that requests it. That is fine.

Personally, I am not OK with that, and many other people are not either.

Everyone has to decide where their lines in the sand are drawn.
 

carolina guy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,737
Location
Concord, NC
Then you read the entire thread because that is not what is ultimately decided by the officer in that thread.

Police need RAS to stop you, plain and simple. The simple carry of a firearm unconcealed is not RAS. An officer needs more mitigating circumstances to detain someone lawfully than just a holstered firearm.


Now this is what I had said about knowing where you stand on the issues you will face. You may be of the mind that you will show your permit to anyone that requests it. That is fine.

Personally, I am not OK with that, and many other people are not either.

Everyone has to decide where their lines in the sand are drawn.

Try substituting "speaking freely" or "being black" for "OC" in this sentance: "The police officer stopped me to quiz me...just because I was OC ."
 
Last edited:

cteaglesfan

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
133
Location
Branford
Then you read the entire thread because that is not what is ultimately decided by the officer in that thread.

Police need RAS to stop you, plain and simple. The simple carry of a firearm unconcealed is not RAS. An officer needs more mitigating circumstances to detain someone lawfully than just a holstered firearm.


Now this is what I had said about knowing where you stand on the issues you will face. You may be of the mind that you will show your permit to anyone that requests it. That is fine.

Personally, I am not OK with that, and many other people are not either.

Everyone has to decide where their lines in the sand are drawn.

In your honest opinion why do you believe a 'well informed' officer would even ask you to see your permit when he know its unlaw???

power trip????
 

cteaglesfan

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
133
Location
Branford
Try substituting "speaking freely" or "being black" for "OC" in this sentance: "The police officer stopped me to quiz me...just because I was OC ."

I personally don't believe OCing has much to do with color. But I do believe the interaction with the LEO does. Like I said earlier in this thread 'speaking freely' can be mistaken for apathy.
 

cteaglesfan

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
133
Location
Branford
VERY good point!!!!!

Imagine being black AND having a holstered firearm, that's a double whammy of the worse kind :lol:

all kidding aside, I totally got what you were saying about what kind of stance I wanted to take on the whole thing.
 

luckyykid

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2012
Messages
74
Location
Meriden, CT
Cteaglesfan,

First, welcome to the forum. You've come to the right place to learn about OC and the CT/Fed law regarding the issue. I have to say these guys are a sharp bunch and very knowledgeable in this area. They thoroughly schooled me on these issues when I was an uninformed officer, much like most of my collegues.

I can tell you that in NH if you plan to open carry, you can plan on numerous police interactions. I don't think that applies to everywhere in NH, like downtown I don't think you would have a problem, but in the residential areas you would. And epecially in "high crime" areas, I think concerned citizens would be calling frequently. And then when the police come, your experience will simply depend on who responds. Every officer is different, and handles things differently based on their own knowledge and expriences. Some cops are well informed of OC laws, but I would say most are not. The question becomes, how often do you feel like talking to the police? It may not be a big deal for you the first few times, but I imagine as it continues it will become more and more annoying, until your accomodating attitude turns to a more unobliging one if you will.

Now some people here may disagree with me on this, but being a cop and handling "man with a gun" calls are not easy. The officer is stuck somewhere in the middle of appeasing the concerned/scared citizen, and not violating the rights of the OCer. And all the while being tactical so in case the guy with the gun is one of ill-intent, the cop can safely go home that night. Its not easy. Especially in a city like NH where gunshots are going off almost daily.

I can also tell you that the reason cops tend to violate peoples rights in OC, two main reasons. The first is lack of education. This topic is not covered specifically in the academy. While Terry stops are covered, OC as it relates to terry is not. And even if a cop did put 2 and 2 together and realize OC is not RAS and therefore = no stop, the mentality is that it's a F$%^ing GUN and it's dangerous and I have to protect myself and the public IN CASE its not a legally carried one. Caselaw has called this a "firearms exception" to Terry, that because a gun is an extremely dangerous instrument in the wrong hands, Terry is overlooked. However the court struck this down and said there is NO firearm exception to Terry. (Rich help me out with the case...I don't have my reference materials in front of me!)

The second reason is that in the academy, we are bombarded with videos and stories of cops being killed by guns. I can't tell you how many videos I've watched of cops being killed by someone with a gun. All of our tactical training revolves around preventing being shot and finding the gun on a guy before he gets to it. We are essentially drilled to be down-right terrified of guns. By the time you hit the street, you don't like the thought of being in the same room with someone else with a gun who isn't a cop. You're indoctrinated to believe that ANY person who has a gun is potentially going to kill you, and therefore we become paranoid. It's how were trained.

So, not sure if that helps any, but thats kinda how it is. I believe that if you OC in residential areas of NH (except maybe in your own neighborhood where your neighbors know you), I think you can expect to have the police called on you. And you're also correct that your race will have something to do with it because its pretty well known on the streets (and FBI stats) that most gun violence is black-on-black crime. But I can almost guarantee you that the person calling the police on you will also be black.
 
Last edited:

cteaglesfan

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
133
Location
Branford
Cteaglesfan,

First, welcome to the forum. You've come to the right place to learn about OC and the CT/Fed law regarding the issue. I have to say these guys are a sharp bunch and very knowledgeable in this area. They thoroughly schooled me on these issues when I was an uninformed officer, much like most of my collegues.

I can tell you that in NH if you plan to open carry, you can plan on numerous police interactions. I don't think that applies to everywhere in NH, like downtown I don't think you would have a problem, but in the residential areas you would. And epecially in "high crime" areas, I think concerned citizens would be calling frequently. And then when the police come, your experience will simply depend on who responds. Every officer is different, and handles things differently based on their own knowledge and expriences. Some cops are well informed of OC laws, but I would say most are not. The question becomes, how often do you feel like talking to the police? It may not be a big deal for you the first few times, but I imagine as it continues it will become more and more annoying, until your accomodating attitude turns to a more unobliging one if you will.

Now some people here may disagree with me on this, but being a cop and handling "man with a gun" calls are not easy. The officer is stuck somewhere in the middle of appeasing the concerned/scared citizen, and not violating the rights of the OCer. And all the while being tactical so in case the guy with the gun is one of ill-intent, the cop can safely go home that night. Its not easy. Especially in a city like NH where gunshots are going off almost daily.

I can also tell you that the reason cops tend to violate peoples rights in OC, two main reasons. The first is lack of education. This topic is not covered specifically in the academy. While Terry stops are covered, OC as it relates to terry is not. And even if a cop did put 2 and 2 together and realize OC is not RAS and therefore = no stop, the mentality is that it's a F$%^ing GUN and it's dangerous and I have to protect myself and the public IN CASE its not a legally carried one. Caselaw has called this a "firearms exception" to Terry, that because a gun is an extremely dangerous instrument in the wrong hands, Terry is overlooked. However the court struck this down and said there is NO firearm exception to Terry. (Rich help me out with the case...I don't have my reference materials in front of me!)

The second reason is that in the academy, we are bombarded with videos and stories of cops being killed by guns. I can't tell you how many videos I've watched of cops being killed by someone with a gun. All of our tactical training revolves around preventing being shot and finding the gun on a guy before he gets to it. We are essentially drilled to be down-right terrified of guns. By the time you hit the street, you don't like the thought of being in the same room with someone else with a gun who isn't a cop. You're indoctrinated to believe that ANY person who has a gun is potentially going to kill you, and therefore we become paranoid. It's how were trained.

So, not sure if that helps any, but thats kinda how it is. I believe that if you OC in residential areas of NH (except maybe in your own neighborhood where your neighbors know you), I think you can expect to have the police called on you. And you're also correct that your race will have something to do with it because its pretty well known on the streets (and FBI stats) that most gun violence is black-on-black crime. But I can almost guarantee you that the person calling the police on you will also be black.

LuckyyKid,

Thanks for that valuable info. I was curious more than anything about the NH police response to OCers. I'm pretty sure that if an individual was OCing they would be stopped with or without RAS, which we all know is wrong. I totally get the whole safety thing. I can imagine being a police officer in a city like New Haven can't be easy. I think I was asking because it would be nice not to have to tug on my shirt every 5 seconds to make sure that my weapon is concealed, as not to send anyone into a panic. There have been times when I realized that my weapon wasn't concealed, and I wondered who saw it or how long I was walking around like that.
 
Last edited:

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
So, not sure if that helps any, but thats kinda how it is. I believe that if you OC in residential areas of NH (except maybe in your own neighborhood where your neighbors know you), I think you can expect to have the police called on you. .

And what does Luckyykid do when a person just says "Piss off, and walks away?"
 

Vitaeus

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
596
Location
Bremerton, Washington
I know this post won't go well on an OC forum, but if I was you, I'd take an honest look at the pros and cons of OC versus CC and make your decision. I see so many people focusing on OC versus CC. How about a focus on training, so should a real high stress event occur, you're able to defend yourself.

I've seen all the youtube vids, and no offense to OC people (I'm sure some do have tactical training), but most of the OC people on youtube don't come across to me as having a whole lot of training under their belt. They walk around for the sole purpose of drawing attention to themselves so they can make a youtube video. Is this a real reason to OC? Or carry at all?

How about a game - take 10 people, 1 in OC, 2 are CC, and 7 aren't carrying at all. You play the bad guy - you win a $100 for a successful gun grab. Are you going to go after the person you know is carrying, or try to guess which of the other 9 people are carrying and where they are carrying.

Practice gun grabs with a friend in both OC and CC and see which one works best for you.

As for cops and the public in general. You'll never have to worry about them at all if you CC. Again, I really question the motives of a lot of OC people. Is it purely for personal defense, to get attention, to prove a point, to take a stand, etc.

I carry only for personal defense.

Why are you here on an open carry advocacy board?
 

cteaglesfan

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
133
Location
Branford
I know this post won't go well on an OC forum, but if I was you, I'd take an honest look at the pros and cons of OC versus CC and make your decision. I see so many people focusing on OC versus CC. How about a focus on training, so should a real high stress event occur, you're able to defend yourself.

I've seen all the youtube vids, and no offense to OC people (I'm sure some do have tactical training), but most of the OC people on youtube don't come across to me as having a whole lot of training under their belt. They walk around for the sole purpose of drawing attention to themselves so they can make a youtube video. Is this a real reason to OC? Or carry at all?

How about a game - take 10 people, 1 in OC, 2 are CC, and 7 aren't carrying at all. You play the bad guy - you win a $100 for a successful gun grab. Are you going to go after the person you know is carrying, or try to guess which of the other 9 people are carrying and where they are carrying.

Practice gun grabs with a friend in both OC and CC and see which one works best for you.

As for cops and the public in general. You'll never have to worry about them at all if you CC. Again, I really question the motives of a lot of OC people. Is it purely for personal defense, to get attention, to prove a point, to take a stand, etc.

I carry only for personal defense.


I believe most people record their encounters for legal purposes because believe it or not, LEOs LIE. I think they post on youtube for education. I also believe that attention is EXACTLY what this whole thing needs. If enough people see the youtube vids, they'll know it's perfectly legal, cops won't get called, no harm, no foul.

I TRULY believe that the majority of OCers do it simply because the laws says they can.

No offense to anything you said BUT you can have all the training in the world but when 'the bullets start flying' most of that crap goes out of the window and pure survival kicks in. I'm a US Army combat vet, I KNOW!!!!!! I dont care if its military, civilian, police, SWAT or whatever kinda training. Once you hear that first shot, you're ******* is gonna pucker just like someone's who has had no training!!!!
 
Top