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Terry Stop Questions

Schlepnier

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
420
Location
Yelm, Washington USA
I am not showing my CPL to a bus driver.
As a legal representative of the local government he can legally demand that you present it in order to board a municiple vehicle if you are observed OC attempting to board the vehicle under his control. and he can also order you off the bus if you refuse to present it under penalty of law(tresspass etc...).


I did not know that, thankfully it appears to only apply to WSP. The more I learn the more I realize just how unfree we really are.
Notice the rest of the law, in order to not run afoul of violating the 4th ammendmant by making a stop without RAS the stop has to pertain to "whether such vehicle complies with the minimum equipment requirements " persuant to a ticket for a defect

I.E. you have faulty equipment, your headlight is light is burnt out, your turn signals do not work etc....

they cannot just stop you to check your ID, that has already been ruled unconstitutional. in federal court.

What's the difference between that and a police officer demanding to see a CPL because they see you conceal a handgun on your person, or sees a handgun on your passenger seat and finds it to be loaded?

The problem is with your interpretation of the grammar, by your own explanation an officer could walk up to me when i have no visible weapon or no weapon on my person at all, and demand to see my CPL simply because i have one and i would be legally obliged to display it absent any RAS of anything. that is most definately "stop and ID" absent RAS which has been ruled again and again to be illegal and a violation of my civil rights.
 
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1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
Wow!!!

I am not showing my CPL to a bus driver.

As a legal representative of the local government he can legally demand that you present it in order to board a municiple vehicle if you are observed OC attempting to board the vehicle under his control. and he can also order you off the bus if you refuse to present it under penalty of law(tresspass etc...).


.

I wont show my CPL to a bus driver either, just like navy... nor any other person, just like navy...
when I use my CPL to avoid the wait, I just write my info on the forms, dont even need to show it to my FFL guy.

your explanation of the bus drivers authority is so wrong it is funny.
I understand that seattle transit has been directed to Ignore open carriers as they are just people riding the bus,
unless a bus rider is disruptive, dangerous or doing other bad stuff the bus driver will do nothing except call for the cops.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Washington State Patrol stops you during daylight hours on a public highway using a marked patrol car for no other reason than to check your driver's license. Constitutional or not?

What's the difference between that and a police officer demanding to see a CPL because they see you conceal a handgun on your person, or sees a handgun on your passenger seat and finds it to be loaded?


Both examples are unconstitutional.

Just because they pass a law saying someone can do something does not make that law constitutional.

Florida 790.06
The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.
Florida law without the qualifier of " when lawful to do so".

Florida 790.02
The carrying of a concealed weapon is declared a breach of peace, and any officer authorized to make arrests under the laws of this state may make arrests without warrant of persons violating the provisions of s. 790.01when said officer has reasonable grounds or probable cause to believe that the offense of carrying a concealed weapon is being committed.
It seems they don't have as strong as protection as our state constitution, and the way our courts interpret article 1 section 7.

Yet the their supreme court ruled this way...

Regalado v. State, 25 So. 3d 600 - Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 4th Dist. 2009

"Despite the obvious potential danger to officers and the public by a person in possession of a concealed gun in a crowd, this is not illegal in Florida unless the person does not have a concealed weapons permit, a fact that an officer cannot glean by mere observation. Based upon our understanding of both Florida and United States Supreme Court precedent, stopping a person solely on the ground that the individual possesses a gun violates the Fourth Amendment."
 

carolina guy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,737
Location
Concord, NC
Both examples are unconstitutional.

Just because they pass a law saying someone can do something does not make that law constitutional.

Florida 790.06
Florida law without the qualifier of " when lawful to do so".

Florida 790.02 It seems they don't have as strong as protection as our state constitution, and the way our courts interpret article 1 section 7.

Yet the their supreme court ruled this way...

Regalado v. State, 25 So. 3d 600 - Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 4th Dist. 2009


+1
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
Both examples are unconstitutional.

Just because they pass a law saying someone can do something does not make that law constitutional.

Florida 790.06
Florida law without the qualifier of " when lawful to do so".

Florida 790.02 It seems they don't have as strong as protection as our state constitution, and the way our courts interpret article 1 section 7.

Yet the their supreme court ruled this way...

Regalado v. State, 25 So. 3d 600 - Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 4th Dist. 2009

Unfortunately in Washington it's clearly stated that "ALL laws a presumed to be constitutional until someone meets the extreme burden of proof that they are not."

I would argue that, that law in an of it self is unconstitutional. It is there and I have had it pointed out by attorneys more than once.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
Not to mention his "explanation" (since he has such heartburn with people "interpreting" laws) of the driver's license check statute is so wrong it is funny:



You fatally missed one word in the statute there, Schlepnier:



See that "or" there, Schlepnier? That means they can require me to stop and display my driver's license OR for an equipment check. "OR" means either one satisfies the law by itself without the other being met. I think you should go Schlepping somewhere else and gain a better understanding of the English language.



Scary. So now we give bus drivers and those guys stabbing trash with sticks in the parks law enforcement powers for no other reason than they are getting a city paycheck.....

and/or
 

BigDave

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Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.
(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

Man this just keeps going on and on lol......

When required to have your cpl on your person the RCW clearly has two requirements
  1. being any police officer and the other
  2. "to any other person when and if required by law to do so".
Let me emphasize "when and if required by law" where in the RCW's is it required by law to show your CPL to a bus driver? a park employee? a business owner? no where or at least no where I can find.
 

BigDave

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Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.
(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

Man this just keeps going on and on lol......

When required to have your cpl on your person the RCW clearly has two requirements
  1. being any police officer and the other
  2. "to any other person when and if required by law to do so".
Let me emphasize "when and if required by law" where in the RCW's is it required by law to show your CPL to a bus driver? a park employee? a business owner? no where or at least no where I can find.


Navy you have to stop agreeing with me, hell is going to freeze over before the Mayan calendar and the world ends on 21st of December 2012.......:lol:

A great deal of arguments, disagreements and misunderstandings come discussion just as this where people let their own personal views and opinions override what is actually written and add or subtract from the very points being made in the law.
 
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Jeff Hayes

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Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
A great deal of arguments, disagreements and misunderstandings come discussion just as this where people let their own personal views and opinions override what is actually written and add or subtract from the very points being made in the law.

These types of discussions are very important IMHO, even when they get a little heated. I learn something almost every time, knowledge is strength. I am thankful for everyone that participates even when they think I could have made a mistake, LOL
 

BigDave

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Messages
3,456
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Yakima, Washington, USA
These types of discussions are very important IMHO, even when they get a little heated. I learn something almost every time, knowledge is strength. I am thankful for everyone that participates even when they think I could have made a mistake, LOL

Yep, I have never been wrong but I was mistaken a time or two! :lol:
 

rapgood

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
598
Location
Stanwood, WA
"Other persons" includes:

Apart from regular LEOs, the statute authorizes certain employees of "the state departments of natural resources and social and health services, the state gambling commission, the state lottery commission, the state parks and recreation commission, the state utilities and transportation commission, the state liquor control board, the office of the insurance commissioner, and the state department of corrections." RCW 10.93.020(2).

It also authorizes "reserve peace officers, and specially commissioned full-time, fully compensated peace officers duly commissioned by the states of Oregon or Idaho or any such peace officer commissioned by a unit of local government of Oregon or Idaho. A reserve peace officer is an individual who is an officer of a Washington law enforcement agency who does not serve such agency on a full-time basis but who, when called by the agency into active service, is fully commissioned on the same basis as full-time peace officers to enforce the criminal laws of the state." RCW 10.93.020(5) (Yes, it really includes Oregon and Idaho).

Also "Federal peace officers" (any employee or agent of the United States government who has the authority to carry firearms and make warrantless arrests and whose duties involve the enforcement of criminal laws of the United States). RCW 10.93.020(6)

Also certain employees of "a statutorily authorized port district police agency or four-year state college or university police agency which has responsibility for police activity within the statutorily authorized enforcement boundaries of the port district, state college, or university" RCW 10.93.020(7) and certain employees commissioned as "Indian tribal peace officers" and a specially commissioned Washington peace officer (i) who is performing functions within the course and scope of the special commission and (ii) who is not also a general authority Washington peace officer, a limited authority Washington peace officer, an Indian tribal peace officer, or a federal peace officer." RCW 10.93.020(8).

Each of these is a law enforcement officer which list includes "a general authority Washington peace officer as defined in RCW 10.93.020, or a specially commissioned Washington peace officer as defined in RCW 10.93.020." "Law enforcement officer" also includes a limited authority Washington peace officer as defined in RCW 10.93.020 if such officer is duly authorized by his or her employer to carry a concealed pistol. RCW 9.41.010(8).
 
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Schlepnier

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
420
Location
Yelm, Washington USA
Funny, I don't bus drivers listed anywhere in there..... :lol:

Aside from a directive from the county/city the driver of the bus is in control of the vehicle, my father was a city and county bus operator for over 20 years and he would pull the bus over and just wait for the cops to show up if you refused to follow his direction as he is responsible for everything that happens on his bus.
So mabey this has clouded my view of what you can "legally do" i'll grant you that,

however i find that insults "I think you should go Schlepping somewhere else" not condusive to the conversation.

BigDave


RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.
(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

Man this just keeps going on and on lol......

When required to have your cpl on your person the RCW clearly has two requirements
1.being any police officer and the other
2."to any other person when and if required by law to do so".

Let me emphasize "when and if required by law" where in the RCW's is it required by law to show your CPL to a bus driver? a park employee? a business owner? no where or at least no where I can find.

Thanks for proving my point dave, looks like it is back to english class here

subject-
-CPL required to display
persons required to display to-
-law enforcement and other
requirement to display-
-when and if required by law to do so.

if i am not required by law to display my CPL i do not have to present it, reguardless of who is demanding it


which leads to this point i made earlier that NavyLCDR chose to ignore:

The problem is with your interpretation of the grammar, by your own explanation an officer could walk up to me when i have no visible weapon or no weapon on my person at all, and demand to see my CPL simply because i have one and i would be legally obliged to display it absent any RAS of anything. that is most definately "stop and ID" absent RAS which has been ruled again and again to be illegal and a violation of my civil rights.

Remembering that when monekybutt started this topic it was about a traffic stop for a moving violation or other such infraction with a visible firearm. since he is operating a motor vehcile his question was how to answer a LEO if he demanded a CPL for seeing him carry.

thinking about the original situation again , i can see where a LEO would have cause to ask if he can SEE a weapon since there is a law that could be in violation, if you confirm you have a CPL that should be the end of it especially since the officer has already ran your info and can see you have a CPL on record. however we all know that isn't neccisarily the case.


To adress the other issue-
See that "or" there, Schlepnier? That means they can require me to stop and display my driver's license OR for an equipment check. "OR" means either one satisfies the law by itself without the other being met.
the problem with the prior part of that law is that is it clearly and blantantly illegal absent reasonable suspicion of a crime for the stop. Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada held that statutes requiring suspects to disclose their names during police investigations did not violate the Fourth Amendment if the statute first required reasonable and articulable suspicion of criminal involvement. Under the rubric of Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. which is why it is never exercised in that manner from what i can find by WSP. ...still looking for such a case right now
 
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Schlepnier

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
420
Location
Yelm, Washington USA
Some interesting cases i found on the matter-

"RCW 46.64.070 was not enacted as a vehicle to gain entry to automobiles for the purpose of conducting exploratory searches. The intent was to allow troopers of the Washington State Patrol to make vehicle inspections "to ascertain whether such vehicle complies with the minimum equipment requirements prescribed by chapter 46.37 RCW." STATE v. SHOEMAKER, 11 Wn.App. 187, 190, 191, 192, 193, 522 P.2d 203 (May 9, 1974).


"STATE OF WASHINGTON ATTORNEY GENERAL OPINION FROM OLYMPIA written by ATTORNEY GENERAL JOHN J. O'CONNEL on December 10, 1959. THIS OPINION CONCLUDES THAT POLICE OFFICERS DO NOT HAVE STATUTORY AUTHORITY TO STOP MOTORISTS SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF EXAMINING THEIR DRIVER'S LICENSES. And the WASHINGTON STATE SUPREME COURT HELD THAT: Under the rationale of the holding in Seattle v. Mesiani, 110 Wn.2d 454, 755 P.2d 775 (1988), AGO 88 (1959) IS STILL VALID AND CORRECT." STATE v. SMITS, 58 Wn.App. 333, 340, 341, 792 P.2d 565 (June 25, 1990). And;


A traffic stop is a seizure for purposes of constitutional analysis under both the fourth amendment of the United States Constitution and article 1, section 7 of the Washington Constitution.

A pretextual traffic stop occurs when police pull over a citizen with the aim of conducting an investigation that is unrelated to driving, rather than stopping the individual with the goal of enforcing the traffic code. Pretextual stops "generally take the form of police stopping a driver for a minor traffic offense to investigate more serious violations -- violations for which the officer does not have probable cause." The stops in these cases were merely a pretext for further search or investigation regarding unrelated potential crimes, regardless of whether the pretextual arrest was facially valid. "Whether pretextual or not, a traffic stop is 'seizure' for the purpose of constitutional analysis, no matter how brief."

Pretext stops are not permitted under article 1, section 7 of the Washington
Constitution. When determining if a stop is pretextual,
courts look to the totality of the circumstances, including both the objective
reasonableness of the officer's behavior and the subjective intent of the officer.


Article I, section 7 provides that '{n}o person shall be disturbed in his private affairs, or his home invaded, without authority of law.' A traffic stop is a seizure for purposes of article I, section 7 and a disturbance of one's private affairs. State v. Parker, 139 Wn.2d 486, 494-96, 987 P.2d 73 (1999); State v. Ladson, 138 Wn.2d 343, 979 P.2d 833 (1999).
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Unfortunately in Washington it's clearly stated that "ALL laws a presumed to be constitutional until someone meets the extreme burden of proof that they are not."

I would argue that, that law in an of it self is unconstitutional. It is there and I have had it pointed out by attorneys more than once.

Yes that is unfortunate and in itself unconstitutional (again statist judges), Richard Sanders does not feel that way and needs to be back on the bench.
 
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