I hope you don't mean to include little old me in that statement. I'm over there discussing something just like he is, you are, etc. I'm not trying to "start" a darned thing. If I were then I'd write a whole lot differently.
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Ohioians for Concealed Carry article on interaction with law enforcement
- Thread starter Makarov
- Start date
Chuck!
Regular Member
May I offer a suggestion?
How about if BB62 writes his own article for the front page, in rebuttal to DSK's article?
Offer an opposing point of view, show the advantages of NOT cooperating with LEO if/when they make an illegal stop of a legal gun carrier.
Don't get into a ******* match about who is the bigger pro-gun supporter, but instead detail out how you think a LAC should behave and why during a stop.
Let me add that I haven't leaped on the bandwagon of this guy from Riverside for a couple of reasons. One, he hasn't asked for any help that I am aware of, and two, as soon as he got arrested, HE CAVED. Why or Earth would you go to the trouble of getting arrested for identifying yourself if you are going to give them your name, DOB and SS# as soon as they put the cuffs on you? I thought it was really funny that the first video of this guy getting arrested for not identifying himself had to be redacted because it contained identifying information.
Anyways, BB62, write an article yourself. If JG won't publish it we can post it around a few other places
I didn't mean to go overboard in my defense of DSK, but please understand. I have and will OC with most of you guys anyplace, and anytime I can make it. We do this to show unity for our cause and stand shoulder to shoulder with our brethren. Standing with Dave, Gary, and a few others in front of hostile legislators in the Statehouse is every bit as nerve wracking as waiting for Eastlake PD to come arrest us under that illegal sign, and those guys are also our brethren in our fight. I will stand shoulder to shoulder with them the same as I would you all.
We can disagree respectfully and still show unity. Jeff and I began our little OCA group as an "in addition to" OFCC rather than "in spite of", and I'd sure like to keep it that way.
Carry on,,,,
Werz
Regular Member
And at the bottom of the article, he should include his phone number so naive newbies can call him for bail money and a retainer for legal counsel.
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BB62
Accomplished Advocate
For you, anything, Chuck! But seriously, writing an article that suggests the opposite of dsk's is not the answer as far as I'm concerned.
I've made a reasonable suggestion to Jeff, let's see if he takes me up on it - then we can discuss my reasoning and the entire subject I raised where this all started.
JSlack7851
Regular Member
@ DSK: I spent 2 days stewing about you. You were rude to me, but since someone, (Rule #6) conveniently didn't go back and read the post, that's that.
I've been contacted by several individuals about how your training goes in the class room. It goes well. Problem is, in the field the rookie is then retrained by the 18 year veteran, who tell's 'em to forget that classroom crap and do it old school, as long as the paper work looks good the Chief will back us. This is the reason we carry voice recorders. Your training is nothing more than a formality, red tape, to get out to the field and soon forgotten.
Maybe you could tell me if this training was a one time thing or have you done this since open carriers started getting harassed?
Gun rights litigation, does this mean 'on behalf of someone harassed for OC?' Testifying at the Capitol is admirable. Chuck tells me you were great, I believe he testified too. We still have the obligation to 'notify' to LEO as to CC. Maybe that will be addressed sometime, its been eight years now.
C'mon, PITP doesn't count. I understand the park's posted, 'no guns'. With all the resources at your command, are you really reaching your full potential?
You asking me? I think he called you a liar...
If this is a apology for being rude, I'll take it. If not, its not important to me that you do. It goes as to your character. I had no intention to start a argument or pick a fight. I don't care what Werz says.
You might be interested to know (or perhaps it doesn't matter in your world). Chuck's been keeping a record of what we've done at OCA.
Dick's Sporting Goods, Aurora:
Douglas Nehez was asked to leave while OCing in the store. Jeff Slack sent several emails, resulting an apology to Doug and written verification by corporate that OC is welcome there. Not only were apologies given, assurance was given that All stores, not only in Ohio, but in every OC state, associates were to be given training that OC was legal and welcome.
Sandusky Mall:
Tom Glassburner emailed the mall asking for clarification regarding their signage, against the advice of many. The property manager e mailed Tom a clarification that stated that CHL holders are indeed welcome.
Alliance City council: Werz, Jeff Slack, and Dave Noice attended a city council meeting that resulted in the city council voiding their illegal city ordnance per ORC 9.68 Werz did most of the talking (good job) and he is not a member here.
Very nice shirts designed by Jennifer McCombs
Waverly Ohio: Several attended Bill Neiman's trial and overfilled the court room. Approximately 45 empty holsters in the Court room.
Garfield Heights PD:
After Josha Mucha was told by the PD that OCing would get him arrested. After a couple of E-mails to the Chief, I was assured his officers would be trained,and an OC picnic was held.
K-Mart, Lorain.
Gun buster signs posted. After several e mails and live chat with Sears Holding Co. signs were removed.
Lorain County Metro Parks.
Parks were posted with 'no guns' signage. After a weeks corrospondance signs were removed and I was assured by the Directors secretary, rangers were to be trained.
Giant Eagle:
2 of our member were harassed by LEO posing as security guards at two different stores. I spoke to the district manager for loss prevention. He assured me that this won't happen again, and that oc was indeed welcome in all their stores.
Village of Batavia, Taste of Clermont.
Signage posted on city streets. Letters sent, organizers were advised as to compliance with 9.68. Organizers will take under advisement.
We are currently working on a Chic-Fil-A store that is posted and Lorain County Agricultural Society to see about getting the signage removed at the Lorain County Fair.
Between your teachings and O (oops, rule #12) efforts to support gun rights of OC and CC, we keep busy. I know this isn't much compared to what you do, babysitting the forum and all, but we try.
I've been contacted by several individuals about how your training goes in the class room. It goes well. Problem is, in the field the rookie is then retrained by the 18 year veteran, who tell's 'em to forget that classroom crap and do it old school, as long as the paper work looks good the Chief will back us. This is the reason we carry voice recorders. Your training is nothing more than a formality, red tape, to get out to the field and soon forgotten.
Maybe you could tell me if this training was a one time thing or have you done this since open carriers started getting harassed?
Gun rights litigation, does this mean 'on behalf of someone harassed for OC?' Testifying at the Capitol is admirable. Chuck tells me you were great, I believe he testified too. We still have the obligation to 'notify' to LEO as to CC. Maybe that will be addressed sometime, its been eight years now.
C'mon, PITP doesn't count. I understand the park's posted, 'no guns'. With all the resources at your command, are you really reaching your full potential?
dsk said:
You asking me? I think he called you a liar...
If this is a apology for being rude, I'll take it. If not, its not important to me that you do. It goes as to your character. I had no intention to start a argument or pick a fight. I don't care what Werz says.
You might be interested to know (or perhaps it doesn't matter in your world). Chuck's been keeping a record of what we've done at OCA.
Dick's Sporting Goods, Aurora:
Douglas Nehez was asked to leave while OCing in the store. Jeff Slack sent several emails, resulting an apology to Doug and written verification by corporate that OC is welcome there. Not only were apologies given, assurance was given that All stores, not only in Ohio, but in every OC state, associates were to be given training that OC was legal and welcome.
Sandusky Mall:
Tom Glassburner emailed the mall asking for clarification regarding their signage, against the advice of many. The property manager e mailed Tom a clarification that stated that CHL holders are indeed welcome.
Alliance City council: Werz, Jeff Slack, and Dave Noice attended a city council meeting that resulted in the city council voiding their illegal city ordnance per ORC 9.68 Werz did most of the talking (good job) and he is not a member here.
Very nice shirts designed by Jennifer McCombs
Waverly Ohio: Several attended Bill Neiman's trial and overfilled the court room. Approximately 45 empty holsters in the Court room.
Garfield Heights PD:
After Josha Mucha was told by the PD that OCing would get him arrested. After a couple of E-mails to the Chief, I was assured his officers would be trained,and an OC picnic was held.
K-Mart, Lorain.
Gun buster signs posted. After several e mails and live chat with Sears Holding Co. signs were removed.
Lorain County Metro Parks.
Parks were posted with 'no guns' signage. After a weeks corrospondance signs were removed and I was assured by the Directors secretary, rangers were to be trained.
Giant Eagle:
2 of our member were harassed by LEO posing as security guards at two different stores. I spoke to the district manager for loss prevention. He assured me that this won't happen again, and that oc was indeed welcome in all their stores.
Village of Batavia, Taste of Clermont.
Signage posted on city streets. Letters sent, organizers were advised as to compliance with 9.68. Organizers will take under advisement.
We are currently working on a Chic-Fil-A store that is posted and Lorain County Agricultural Society to see about getting the signage removed at the Lorain County Fair.
Between your teachings and O (oops, rule #12) efforts to support gun rights of OC and CC, we keep busy. I know this isn't much compared to what you do, babysitting the forum and all, but we try.
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Chuck!
Regular Member
I has come to my attention that people think I called Jeff Slack a liar somewhere in this conversation,
I want to state on no uncertain terms that I did not intend to do so
I offer my whole hearted apologies to anyone who thinks I did
With that, gentlemen, I am retiring from this conversation
I wish you well
I want to state on no uncertain terms that I did not intend to do so
I offer my whole hearted apologies to anyone who thinks I did
With that, gentlemen, I am retiring from this conversation
I wish you well
eye95
Well-known member
You are not a lawyer. Answering questions because they pertain to the stop is not guarantee that you will not inadvertently incriminate yourself. The law seems to be quite clear on what you must say and when you must say it. Do what the law requires and no more until a lawyer is present. I would even go so far as to argue that, if you do not know whether you are required to identify yourself, you should be able to demand counsel before even doing that!
I am confident in my ability to know when I must identify myself under Alabama law. I hope to soon have that confidence under Ohio law. The laws seem to be quite similar.
eye95
Well-known member
The downside to this approach is that you will likely cause the officer to physically stop you--in ways that you will find painful and objectionable. There might even be some permanent damage, both physical and legal. Remember, there may be circumstances of the stop of which you are unaware and which may make every action of the officer absolutely justified. A 911 caller lying about your actions comes to mind. The officer has no way of knowing that you did not threaten someone and will justifiably act with RAS. Since you have no way of knowing about the fraudulent call, you don't know that the officer is acting reasonably and lawfully. So ask! "Am I free to go?" "No." "Why are you detaining me?" If he provides a lawful reason to stop you, tell him the identifying information required by law. If he does not, keep asking if you are free to go. If that does not work, ask for a supervisor.
If, after asking if you are free to go, the officer refuses to answer and takes no overt action to stop you, then the reasonable assumption is that you are indeed free to go. Shrug and go. Of course, have a recorder running always.
eye95
Well-known member
OK, then how about a lawyer with an opposing view posting it on the front page? Then both lawyers (or neither lawyer) could be requested to post their phone numbers. Absent both positions being posted, despite any disclaimers to the contrary, the advice on the front page would seem to be the de facto official position of OFCC.
JSlack7851
Regular Member
Here, its ORC 2921.29, plus, and I'm pretty sure you're familiar with Terry vs. Ohio. The recent story about Riverside and Mr. R. Call involves ORC 2921.31 Obstructing official business, as, that is what he was charged with.
Here's what happens if you disagree with the de facto position,
I have organized maybe a dozen OC events and participated in many more here in Ohio. Our goal has been to educate the public that OC is both legal and perfectly normal. It has never been our intent to shock and awe anyone. (ORC - 2917.31 Inducing panic) Rather, public interaction and education is the goal. A right also guaranteed by the First Amendment.
I hope this helps you to see which way the rivers flow here in Ohio.
Welcome to the forum.
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MyWifeSaidYes
Regular Member
You mean 2921.29
MyWifeSaidYes
Regular Member
Are you relocating? We'd love to have you!
JSlack7851
Regular Member
I hate typos. I even looked it up and double checked, 2921.29. Thanks!
dsk
New member
You'll find additional resources here: www.ohioccw.org. And feel free to email with specific questions there as well.
eye95
Well-known member
I am.
_______________
Regarding the quote from OFCC: I saw that kind of attitude from an Alabama gun site in which I no longer participate. I don't much like sites like that. They seem to represent the top-down structure that is antithetical to the grassroots nature of Liberty movements. Also, I am very anti when it comes to licensing the RKBA. As I have always said, I don't care if the State wants to license the use of fabric to cover a gun; I just won't conceal. But the requirement to gain State permission to carry a gun in my car is a clear abridgment of our Right.
MyWifeSaidYes
Regular Member
eye95 said:
Like any group of like-minded individuals, there will always be SOME topic that won't be agreed upon by everyone in that group.
OFCC seems to be FOR concealed carry (Duh!). They seem to be FOR open carry, but refuse to allow the public to view the open carry discussion forum without first registering. They seem to be against refusing to provide ID to a LEO when that LEO will not or cannot provide a reasonable suspicion of a crime. That is puzzling to some and has caused quite a stir on OFCC.
eye95 said:
That's the tip of the iceberg.
Remember, you're moving to Ohio, where a firearm that holds 31-rounds is a semi-automatic but one that holds 32 rounds is a full-automatic machinegun...and a pistol in your trunk with no magazine inserted is a loaded weapon if its magazine is stored in your glove compartment and has 1 or more rounds in it.
Glad to have you as a fellow Ohioan! Hopefully, you'll be fortunate enough not to have to live on decongestants like many of us do... Something about the air or weather or something here.
ETA: Oops, wrong thread for my post, eye95. It must be the decongestants kicking in.
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eye95
Well-known member
I don't mind varying viewpoints. It's the if-you-don't-like-the-way-i-run-my-site-don't-post-here attitude. If one purports to run a Liberty-loving site, he ought to run it with Liberty-loving values. So, I'll pass on OFCC.
Anyway, I don't care a whit about concealed carry. I only care about the ability to carry. As long as the State does not interfere with my ability to carry, what does it matter if the use of fabric requires the issuance of paper? The only problem I have is that, like Alabama, Ohio requires that paper for me to carry in the extension of my castle known as my car. That violates our RKBA and needs to be changed.