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Thread: Mayors Send Opposition Letter HB5225

  1. #1
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    Mayors Send Opposition Letter HB5225

    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-25-2012 at 09:48 PM.

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    8 A$$holes. They say they are against illegal guns. This bill has nothing to do with illegal guns. Morons.

    
    Last edited by scot623; 09-26-2012 at 12:07 AM.

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    Its outrageous that they want you to go through a safety course ... the state is not providing it free. I don't think these provisions are constitutional at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Its outrageous that they want you to go through a safety course ... the state is not providing it free. I don't think these provisions are constitutional at all.

    It's a 10 question quiz. BTW, if you answer all 10 questions "Yes", you pass.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    these two are rocket scientists:

    Michigan State Police Director Col. Kriste Kibbey Etue agreed, saying, “Without this safeguard, there is no way to prevent convicted felons, the mentally incapacitated and other dangerous individuals from purchasing handguns in our state. This legislation also eliminates the state’s pistol registry, which is a critical crime solving tool that was utilized more than 21,000 times by law enforcement last year.”

    Detroit Mayor Dave Bing said it could endanger law enforcement, adding, “During my administration, four Detroit police officers were shot by perpetrators using a shotgun that was legally sold without a background check.”


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    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    these two are rocket scientists:

    Michigan State Police Director Col. Kriste Kibbey Etue agreed, saying, “Without this safeguard, there is no way to prevent convicted felons, the mentally incapacitated and other dangerous individuals from purchasing handguns in our state. This legislation also eliminates the state’s pistol registry, which is a critical crime solving tool that was utilized more than 21,000 times by law enforcement last year.”

    Detroit Mayor Dave Bing said it could endanger law enforcement, adding, “During my administration, four Detroit police officers were shot by perpetrators using a shotgun that was legally sold without a background check.”




    Utilized 21,000 times.... sure... but how many crimes did it solve? It sure as hell didn't solve 21k crimes.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

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    Zero

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    So let's see

    The people who are not supporting this bill are- a bunch of anti-2A mayors, the anti-2A state police, bloombergs anti-2A group, the anti-2A brady group, and.... Michigan Open Carry inc.

    Makes you think, doesn't it.....
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    The people who are not supporting this bill are- a bunch of anti-2A mayors, the anti-2A state police, bloombergs anti-2A group, the anti-2A brady group, and.... Michigan Open Carry inc.

    Makes you think, doesn't it.....
    Pro-gun and anti-gun organizations both opposing (or both supporting) a gun-related bill is not without precedent. It's just been for entirely different reasons, consistent with their missions and views.

    We see the anti-gunners' reasons in the letter linked in this thread. Can you recap what you know of MOC's reasons?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Pro-gun and anti-gun organizations both opposing (or both supporting) a gun-related bill is not without precedent. It's just been for entirely different reasons, consistent with their missions and views.

    We see the anti-gunners' reasons in the letter linked in this thread. Can you recap what you know of MOC's reasons?
    Because apparently the leadership of MOC believes that every MI citizen without a CPL will be charged under the GFSZA. But you know, when I look at gun laws across the country, I see MANY states with no PP, and can't seem to find anyone getting arrested and charged with it. If what MOC says is true, why isn't every person in KY, VA, OH, AZ, MT, ID, WY, NV, NM, NC, VT, NH, ect... who do not have a CPL getting arrested and prosecuted?

    Do you hear any Gun Rights groups in those states calling for PP to stop GFSZA arrests, cause I don't.

    MOC can state whatever reasons they want, not supporting registration and purchase permit repeal is supporting gun control. These laws only serve to make it harder for citizens to be legally armed, and that is never acceptable imo.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    Because apparently the leadership of MOC believes that every MI citizen without a CPL will be charged under the GFSZA. But you know, when I look at gun laws across the country, I see MANY states with no PP, and can't seem to find anyone getting arrested and charged with it. If what MOC says is true, why isn't every person in KY, VA, OH, AZ, MT, ID, WY, NV, NM, NC, VT, NH, ect... who do not have a CPL getting arrested and prosecuted?

    Do you hear any Gun Rights groups in those states calling for PP to stop GFSZA arrests, cause I don't.

    MOC can state whatever reasons they want, not supporting registration and purchase permit repeal is supporting gun control. These laws only serve to make it harder for citizens to be legally armed, and that is never acceptable imo.
    http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...ic,2166.0.html

    read reply #4. Not all of the MOC board feels that way.
    Last edited by WilDChilD; 09-26-2012 at 01:27 PM.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...ic,2166.0.html

    read reply #4. Not all of the MOC board feels that way.
    Thanks, that is good to know. Maybe there is hope yet!
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    “This bill dismantles Michigan’s carefully crafted background check system and eliminates a vital law enforcement tool,” said Detroit Police Chief Ralph Godbee in a press release. “Background checks are a critical component in keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and protecting our police officers and our communities. Unfortunately, this dangerous bill would put more of our brave men and women in harm’s way.”
    *Sigh*

    Must be the reason why, in the past, I've noticed all the officers lying on the shoulder of the road and in the median while traveling through Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Etc.

  14. #14
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    Thanks, that is good to know. Maybe there is hope yet!
    Now I dont know the best way to fight them on this.
    1. Join MOC and fight from the inside?
    2. Tell them about how myself and others arent joining because our values dont line up?

    I have really wanted to join and take a roll in MOC but dont know if now is the right time.

  15. #15
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Mayors Send Opposition Letter HB5225

    Here's a good reason too:

    Who lobbies for Michigan Open Carry?

    I'm personally more energized and care more about PFZs. The other board member who is behind registration repeal (not me) is free to put his energy into registration repeal if he gets the rest of the board to go along with it.

    "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it."
    - Andrew Jackson

    I won't make this another OpenCarry.org thread about Michigan Open Carry's neutrality on HB 5225. Let me ask those who would complain about our inaction on 5225: when's the last time you visited a lawmaker's office in Lansing in person to support any gun bill?

    If you're a dues paying member, I welcome you to open a discussion about it in the member feedback area or member lounge on Michigan Open Carry's forum -- you're more likely to have a discussion with the board members on that venue.

    I'd also point to the fact that there are done here that ardently oppose registration repeal -- for valid reasons. No matter which side is taken, someone will be upset. The answer for us has been to take no side and make no one happy or upset.

    I've given my thoughts about where I will discuss this matter further. I will see you there if you'd like to have the discussion further.

    Meanwhile, I'll leave you with this...Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1348681425.987922.jpg 
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    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    As Vice President of Michigan Open Carry let me make this clear, MOC is not supporting, nor is it opposing, HB 5225. MOC's official stance on the bill is nuetral, for the 50th time... if it passes , if it doesnt then

    As far as the GFSZA is concerned, yes there have been no documented cases of people being charged on this alone, however the law is there and as long as the law is there so is the possibility of being brought up on charges for violating it. MOC's leadership did not feel comfortable openly supporting a bill that could potentially hang people up because then our members and people of Michigan might look at us as the reason they are now facing federal weapons charges.

    As an organization its a lot different when deciding to support, oppose, or stay neutral on a bill. We cant just pick and choose the bills we as individuals like, we have the added responsibility of making sure that bills that become law are in the best interest of our membership as well as the people of this state.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

  17. #17
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Mayors Send Opposition Letter HB5225

    “This bill dismantles Michigan’s carefully crafted background check system and eliminates a vital law enforcement tool,” said Detroit Police Chief Ralph Godbee in a press release. “Background checks are a critical component in keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and protecting our police officers and our communities. Unfortunately, this dangerous bill would put more of our brave men and women in harm’s way.”


    lolz. The black police chief neglects to mention registration was put in place by the KKK to prevent black ppl from owning handguns.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Its a shame criminals dont get purchase permits and register their handguns, otherwise the law might actually work.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

  19. #19
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    Its a shame criminals dont get purchase permits and register their handguns, otherwise the law might actually work.
    Bad form

  20. #20
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Here's a good reason too:

    Who lobbies for Michigan Open Carry?

    I'm personally more energized and care more about PFZs. The other board member who is behind registration repeal (not me) is free to put his energy into registration repeal if he gets the rest of the board to go along with it.

    "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it."
    - Andrew Jackson

    I won't make this another OpenCarry.org thread about Michigan Open Carry's neutrality on HB 5225. Let me ask those who would complain about our inaction on 5225: when's the last time you visited a lawmaker's office in Lansing in person to support any gun bill?

    If you're a dues paying member, I welcome you to open a discussion about it in the member feedback area or member lounge on Michigan Open Carry's forum -- you're more likely to have a discussion with the board members on that venue.

    I'd also point to the fact that there are done here that ardently oppose registration repeal -- for valid reasons. No matter which side is taken, someone will be upset. The answer for us has been to take no side and make no one happy or upset.

    I've given my thoughts about where I will discuss this matter further. I will see you there if you'd like to have the discussion further.

    Meanwhile, I'll leave you with this...Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1348681425.987922.jpg 
Views:	199 
Size:	98.2 KB 
ID:	9289
    I am not trying to start a inhouse gun owners fight. And I can see why people want registration, (I do think they are misguided) but we need to fall into line with the rest of the free country.

    I can also see how you (The Q)cant be everywhere to fight every fight but saying "WE SUPPORT HB5225" isnt going to take alot of time. And if all the org. in MI did maybe the governor wouldnt be so ready to just appease the firearms community so his buddies get elected (or reelected) in Nov.

    With all that said I am taking my fight to the inside, see you in the members area tonight.
    Last edited by WilDChilD; 09-26-2012 at 04:08 PM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Mayors Send Opposition Letter HB5225

    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    I am not trying to start a inhouse gun owners fight. And I can see why people want registration, (I do think they are misguided) but we need to fall into line with the rest or the free country.

    I can also see how you (The Q)cant be everywhere to fight every fight but saying "WE SUPPORT HB5225" isnt going to take alot of time. And if all the org. in MI did maybe the governor wouldnt be so ready to just appease the firearms community so his buddys get elected (or reelected) in Nov.

    With all that said I am taking my fight to the inside, see you in the members area tonight.
    I'm a Ron Paul person since this last election cycle I have become much more active within the Republican Party, not because I like to party where it is but rather because I want to change where it is headed.

    I'm unsure if I will seek a second term next summer at this time. If I decide not to, I'll be looking to groom a successor. While the choice is ultimately up to the membership, I'd like to prepare someone to be my successor and endorse them should I decide to not re-up.
    Last edited by TheQ; 09-26-2012 at 02:54 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    Bad form
    I'm confused, how is it bad form?

    The mayors say that current law helps prevent guns from being in the hands of criminals, criminals do not go to the police station for a background check and to obtain a purchase permit, otherwise if they did the law would then prevent them from buying a firearm. However criminals that know they cannot legally buy a firearm do not go to the police station, they simply buy one on the street, illegally. Therefore if criminals actually attempted to buy a firearm legally they would be stopped and the law would have some merit, but since they do not the fact that they are claiming it prevents this from happening is laughable at best. Ask any officer who pulls a gun off of a criminal if it was registered, ask the criminal if he obtained a purchase permit for it, the answer to both will probably be no.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

  23. #23
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    As always though you may feel free to email the board at board@miopencarry.org if you would like to voice your opinion about HB 5225 and MOC's stance on the bill.

    Or if youre an MOC member feel free to discuss the issue in our members area of our forums: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...oard,16.0.html
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    You guys should welcome a FGFSZ arrest/conviction. It's a guaranteed SCOTUS victory.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  25. #25
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Mayors Send Opposition Letter HB5225

    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    You guys should welcome a FGFSZ arrest/conviction. It's a guaranteed SCOTUS victory.
    You got the $100,000 to get the case there?

    Don't be so sure on the victory. SCotUS has accepted some pretty warped interpretations of the commerce clause and have historically thrown 2A under the bus.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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