Pistol purchase permit requirement amounts to "may issue" in some NC counties

John_Longstreet · Sep 26, 2012

Pistol purchase permit requirement amounts to "may issue" in some NC counties

I'm in the process of relocating to NC. I have legal and current CCWs for the states of Florida and Virginia, both of which have full carry reciprocity with NC. I want to be able to OC as well.

However, unlike in VA and FL, neither of these are considered valid for the purpose of buying a handgun in NC, regardless of whether you're OCing, CCing or just home defense.

Only legal option to buy a handgun is to either:
a) participate in the Jim Crow era law forcing one to get the arbitrary approval ("may issue") from the sheriff of the county in which you reside in the form of a "purchase permit", or
b) get a statewide CCW permit, which takes 90 days and around $100, plus the cost of the mandatory 1-2 day "pistol familiarization" course (another $150, and if the classes in your area are full then you're not getting a permit that month, sorry).

For the CCW application, DD-214s---even for combat infantry, armorers and MPs---are not considered proof enough by the state of NC that you have the requisite experience with a handgun, and need to be taught such valuable pointers as which end the bullet comes out of, why it's better to buy a holster rather than stick the thing in your waistband, and why you should avoid brandishing your handgun to menace your common law wife, even if you really think it'll help punctuate your point about who bosses who.

There's a giant infantry base in Fayetteville full of people who have 10 times more respect and skill with a firearm than your average joe, yet they have to go sit in the plastic chairs for 2 days and pay a bunch of money to get the state of North Carolina's approval that they're not too ignorant to be trusted to carry a firearm around other people. Really, NC? Really?

Frankly, both of these options suck, but the purchase permit requirement sucks more. My research have shown a number of counties (Alamance, Orange and Durham, plus others) are functionally "May Issue" states in the middle of a Shall Issue state at this point. Some of these restrictions can only be viewed as a deliberate effort to restrict and minimize the number of handguns owned by residents of the county. For example: Orange and Alamance county both limit the number of purchase permits you can apply for (1 a month) and also force you to list 5 non-family references from the county who've known you for more than 4 years. Basically, if you haven't lived there for four years, you're banned from buying a handgun.

I was forced to sell all my handguns to move to my current state, and I deeply resented it. I'm not going to give my tax dollars to any NC county that feels a similar need to screw with my rights.

Can any NC pistol owners help me out with this decision?

Since I have no choice but to accept it, I want to pick a county where the purchase permit requirements are cursory and standardized: in a number of counties, it seems to be a $5, no fingerprint, 3 day process. While still prejudicial, this would at least allow me to quickly buy a new CCW piece and carry safely on my existing licenses (I verified FL at least is fine with this) while waiting the probably 3-4 month period it will take me to finish the state CCW process, which removes the need for the purchase permit at all. I'm not willing to be disarmed for 3-4 months in an unfamiliar locale. Which counties should I be looking at? Any suggestions?

WalkingWolf · Sep 26, 2012

John_Longstreet said:
I'm in the process of relocating to NC. I have legal and current CCWs for the states of Florida and Virginia, both of which have full carry reciprocity with NC. I want to be able to OC as well.

However, unlike in VA and FL, neither of these are considered valid for the purpose of buying a handgun in NC, regardless of whether you're OCing, CCing or just home defense.

Only legal option to buy a handgun is to either:
a) participate in the Jim Crow era law forcing one to get the arbitrary approval ("may issue") from the sheriff of the county in which you reside in the form of a "purchase permit", or
b) get a statewide CCW permit, which takes 90 days and around $100, plus the cost of the mandatory 1-2 day "pistol familiarization" course (another $150, and if the classes in your area are full then you're not getting a permit that month, sorry).

For the CCW application, DD-214s---even for combat infantry, armorers and MPs---are not considered proof enough by the state of NC that you have the requisite experience with a handgun, and need to be taught such valuable pointers as which end the bullet comes out of, why it's better to buy a holster rather than stick the thing in your waistband, and why you should avoid brandishing your handgun to menace your common law wife, even if you really think it'll help punctuate your point about who bosses who.

There's a giant infantry base in Fayetteville full of people who have 10 times more respect and skill with a firearm than your average joe, yet they have to go sit in the plastic chairs for 2 days and pay a bunch of money to get the state of North Carolina's approval that they're not too ignorant to be trusted to carry a firearm around other people. Really, NC? Really?

Frankly, both of these options suck, but the purchase permit requirement sucks more. My research have shown a number of counties (Alamance, Orange and Durham, plus others) are functionally "May Issue" states in the middle of a Shall Issue state at this point. Some of these restrictions can only be viewed as a deliberate effort to restrict and minimize the number of handguns owned by residents of the county. For example: Orange and Alamance county both limit the number of purchase permits you can apply for (1 a month) and also force you to list 5 non-family references from the county who've known you for more than 4 years. Basically, if you haven't lived there for four years, you're banned from buying a handgun.

I was forced to sell all my handguns to move to my current state, and I deeply resented it. I'm not going to give my tax dollars to any NC county that feels a similar need to screw with my rights.

Can any NC pistol owners help me out with this decision?

Since I have no choice but to accept it, I want to pick a county where the purchase permit requirements are cursory and standardized: in a number of counties, it seems to be a $5, no fingerprint, 3 day process. While still prejudicial, this would at least allow me to quickly buy a new CCW piece and carry safely on my existing licenses (I verified FL at least is fine with this) while waiting the probably 3-4 month period it will take me to finish the state CCW process, which removes the need for the purchase permit at all. I'm not willing to be disarmed for 3-4 months in an unfamiliar locale. Which counties should I be looking at? Any suggestions?

These are the rules in NC, you don't have any choice but to follow the law in the state you are in.

REDFIVE48 · Sep 26, 2012

Haven't heard issues with Gaston or Lincoln county with getting a PPP, which part of the state are you moving to?

davidmcbeth · Sep 26, 2012

I'm with the OP 100%. The training requirements are JIM CROW laws, people just don't recognize this because they seeeeemmmm to be reasonable.

In my state, NRA training is also required to get not only a permit but also to transport your gun (you cannot walk out of your house w/o a permit). I am arguing that since I have the right to maintain my proficiency, I should be issued a permit w/o a NRA training course (that is currently a requirement). My administrative hearing board has not ruled at this training requirement point at this time when I objected to this point (they are sitting on it right now) but have ruled in my favor in respect to providing them with much of the information they sought in a questionnaire that they sent me and I objected to.

And I also believe that my state approved military service as being an adequate substitute .. I am still trying to get that definitely known.

So I have an objection to the costs and time required to get a permit (I already own the handgun legally).

If in NC you need a permit to transport then you can make the same argument: you have the gun and have a right to practice so a permit should be issued unless the state can show you do not have your gun rights.

Proper way of doing this is to apply and object to specific line item information being requested. So you don't have to accept it; you can make the argument. All it will cost you is time.

davidmcbeth · Sep 26, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
These are the rules in NC, you don't have any choice but to follow the law in the state you are in.

My state has similar rules; however, these rules are old .. pre-Heller, pre-McDonald, pre-others. Once can certainly object to the requirements and argue a denial.

Worst case scenario is he loses and has to start the process over again.

In my state (as one example), the rule is that you must list your prior arrest and motor vehicle offenses/charges. I objected to these as not being relevant. The administrative review board agreed. So, the rules can change to accommodate or adjust for new case law.

In fact, I objected to everything the administrative review board said was mandatory; and obtained a ruling in my favor on almost every point. I initially objected to a questionnaire in its entirety and the board said that they did not understand exactly which question(s) I was objecting to. So I completed their set of interrogatories (or questionnaire) with "objection" on every query and noted in my objection pleadings the reason for each specific query.

When in doubt, object. It preserves it for a reviewing court if needed or desired. Takes longer to get a permit...sure. But its legal points to be made. They may change their interrogatories for others (or myself if I need to re-apply), making the process easier.

There have been instances where a person forgot an arrest or speeding ticket and the board says "you lied by not completing this section fully-permit denied"..so this is not a "go on, tell them, what can it hurt" scenario.

davidmcbeth · Sep 26, 2012

John_Longstreet said:
I was forced to sell all my handguns to move to my current state, and I deeply resented it. I'm not going to give my tax dollars to any NC county that feels a similar need to screw with my rights.

I think these laws regarding the moving from one state to another with the other state saying you cannot bring your guns in are retarded.

However, I'm sure you could have found two ffls to accomplish the move and keep your guns. Transfer the guns to ffl in old state; have him transfer guns to new state ffl and he transfers to guns back to you.

Now that law is so retarded ... I would be at my legislators' doors about this law. Pounding hard!

WalkingWolf · Sep 26, 2012

davidmcbeth said:
My state has similar rules; however, these rules are old .. pre-Heller, pre-McDonald, pre-others. Once can certainly object to the requirements and argue a denial.

Worst case scenario is he loses and has to start the process over again.

In my state (as one example), the rule is that you must list your prior arrest and motor vehicle offenses/charges. I objected to these as not being relevant. The administrative review board agreed. So, the rules can change to accommodate or adjust for new case law.

In fact, I objected to everything the administrative review board said was mandatory; and obtained a ruling in my favor on almost every point. I initially objected to a questionnaire in its entirety and the board said that they did not understand exactly which question(s) I was objecting to. So I completed their set of interrogatories (or questionnaire) with "objection" on every query and noted in my objection pleadings the reason for each specific query.

When in doubt, object. It preserves it for a reviewing court if needed or desired. Takes longer to get a permit...sure. But its legal points to be made. They may change their interrogatories for others (or myself if I need to re-apply), making the process easier.

There have been instances where a person forgot an arrest or speeding ticket and the board says "you lied by not completing this section fully-permit denied"..so this is not a "go on, tell them, what can it hurt" scenario.

Maybe I misunderstood his OP. I was under the impression he has not tried to get a PPP. I thought he objected to the idea of paying to get one, which if that is the case I agree, but it is the law for now. The odd thing is he clearly has no problem with a privilege card, but objects to getting a permit. He does not need a privilege card in NC to OC. I had one, the training was a few hours. But I never CC, I only had it to purchase guns without the insta check, which was a pain at gun shows. Drive 100 miles then have insta check go down. I let my privilege card go years ago because I don't need it. That is unless NRA, and GRNC manage to move OC to being a privilege of the privilege card.

carolina guy · Sep 26, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
Maybe I misunderstood his OP. I was under the impression he has not tried to get a PPP. I thought he objected to the idea of paying to get one, which if that is the case I agree, but it is the law for now. The odd thing is he clearly has no problem with a privilege card, but objects to getting a permit. He does not need a privilege card in NC to OC. I had one, the training was a few hours. But I never CC, I only had it to purchase guns without the insta check, which was a pain at gun shows. Drive 100 miles then have insta check go down. I let my privilege card go years ago because I don't need it. That is unless NRA, and GRNC manage to move OC to being a privilege of the privilege card.

+1 :

Romney is a Mormon~Obama is a one "m" less

bc.cruiser · Sep 26, 2012

John_Longstreet, come on down!

John_Longstreet said:
I'm in the process of relocating to NC. I have legal and current CCWs for the states of Florida and Virginia, both of which have full carry reciprocity with NC. I want to be able to OC as well.

No permit is required to OC. A CHP-Concealed Handgun Permit- is required to CC a handgun; no other weapon may be carried concealed.

John_Longstreet said:
Only legal option to buy a handgun is to either:
a) participate in the Jim Crow era law forcing one to get the arbitrary approval ("may issue") from the sheriff of the county in which you reside in the form of a "purchase permit", or
b) get a statewide CCW permit, which takes 90 days and around $100, plus the cost of the mandatory 1-2 day "pistol familiarization" course (another $150, and if the classes in your area are full then you're not getting a permit that month, sorry).

There is no "familiarization" requirement, and most classes are one day. They range from about $40-$150, depending on the instructor. The class requirement is 8 hrs, of which 2 hrs must be on NC state law. The real purpose of the class is to familiarize the individual with NC laws about where and when you can/cannot carry. Knowing how to operate a handgun is only half. You must demonstrate 'proficiency' in firing a handgun, and must also be familiar enough with it to understand the function and maintenance of parts. For any moderate level of experience, the range test is a joke.

Quite frankly, there are any number of people here (including military) that I wouldn't trust with the simple act of walking while chewing gum, let alone carrying a gun in public.

John_Longstreet said:
Frankly, both of these options suck, but the purchase permit requirement sucks more. My research have shown a number of counties (Alamance, Orange and Durham, plus others) are functionally "May Issue" states in the middle of a Shall Issue state at this point. Some of these restrictions can only be viewed as a deliberate effort to restrict and minimize the number of handguns owned by residents of the county. For example: Orange and Alamance county both limit the number of purchase permits you can apply for (1 a month) and also force you to list 5 non-family references from the county who've known you for more than 4 years. Basically, if you haven't lived there for four years, you're banned from buying a handgun.

I was forced to sell all my handguns to move to my current state, and I deeply resented it. I'm not going to give my tax dollars to any NC county that feels a similar need to screw with my rights.

Can any NC pistol owners help me out with this decision?

Since I have no choice but to accept it, I want to pick a county where the purchase permit requirements are cursory and standardized: in a number of counties, it seems to be a $5, no fingerprint, 3 day process. While still prejudicial, this would at least allow me to quickly buy a new CCW piece and carry safely on my existing licenses (I verified FL at least is fine with this) while waiting the probably 3-4 month period it will take me to finish the state CCW process, which removes the need for the purchase permit at all. I'm not willing to be disarmed for 3-4 months in an unfamiliar locale. Which counties should I be looking at? Any suggestions?

Whatever guns you have now, or get on the way, bring'em on! Only in Durham county would you be required to register them.

The individual county sheriffs can be made to be less restrictive on criteria for the PPP. It takes time, letters, and phone calls to the AG, and even visits to a Superior Court judge. Residency requirements for the PPP should not be greater than that required to vote. If denied a permit for any reason, the sheriff has 7 days in which to inform you in writing of his reason.

The $5 fee is standard throughout NC. No other fee to be required. Cumberland county (Fayetteville/FtBragg/Spring Lake) issues up to 5 PPP at a time and each one is good for 5 years. If used for a private party sale, you only have to show it to the seller; he is not required to take or keep it on file. I recommend a bill of sale, annotated that the PPP was presented. It takes from 1-5 days to process. You do have to have 1 resident's reference that has known you for at least 6 months.

http://www.ccsonc.org/pdfs/FORM 67 GUN PERMIT APPLICATION.pdf

Anything else we can help with, just ask.

nobama · Sep 26, 2012

If the OP moves to NC and has a CCW permit that this state recognizes, isnt he good to go without the PPP? Im not sure.

bc.cruiser · Sep 26, 2012

wethepeople said:
If the OP moves to NC and has a CCW permit that this state recognizes, isnt he good to go without the PPP? Im not sure.

Nope; you can carry with an out of state CC permit, but you can't use it to buy.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-402.html

ncwabbit · Sep 26, 2012

John_Longstreet said:
I'm in the process of relocating to NC. I have legal and current CCWs for the states of Florida and Virginia, both of which have full carry reciprocity with NC. I want to be able to OC as well. FYI tis referred to as CHP in the state

as previously mentioned you do not need anything to OC in the state of NC

However, unlike in VA and FL, neither of these are considered valid for the purpose of buying a handgun in NC, regardless of whether you're OCing, CCing or just home defense.

sorry, they are not valid to purchase a handgun in any other state you are not a resident of per se due to ATF criteria.

Only legal option to buy a handgun is to either: mandated by state statutes and approved by ATF
a) participate in the Jim Crow era law forcing one to get the arbitrary approval ("may issue") from the sheriff of the county in which you reside in the form of a "purchase permit", or
b) get a statewide CCW permit, which takes 90 days and around $100, plus the cost of the mandatory 1-2 day "pistol familiarization" course (another $150, and if the classes in your area are full then you're not getting a permit that month, sorry).

BC gave you the proper answer w/the exception the statutes & doj require 8 hour classroom w/2 hours covering NC Deadly force laws PLUS range time to shoot a minimum of 50 rounds at 5,7,10

For the CCW application, DD-214s---even for combat infantry, armorers and MPs---are not considered proof enough by the state of NC that you have the requisite experience with a handgun, and need to be taught such valuable pointers as which end the bullet comes out of, why it's better to buy a holster rather than stick the thing in your waistband, and why you should avoid brandishing your handgun to menace your common law wife, even if you really think it'll help punctuate your point about who bosses who.

There's a giant infantry base in Fayetteville full of people who have 10 times more respect and skill with a firearm than your average joe, yet they have to go sit in the plastic chairs for 2 days and pay a bunch of money to get the state of North Carolina's approval that they're not too ignorant to be trusted to carry a firearm around other people. Really, NC? Really?

Frankly, both of these options suck, but the purchase permit requirement sucks more. My research have shown a number of counties (Alamance, Orange and Durham, plus others) are functionally "May Issue" states in the middle of a Shall Issue state at this point. Some of these restrictions can only be viewed as a deliberate effort to restrict and minimize the number of handguns owned by residents of the county. For example: Orange and Alamance county both limit the number of purchase permits you can apply for (1 a month) and also force you to list 5 non-family references from the county who've known you for more than 4 years. Basically, if you haven't lived there for four years, you're banned from buying a handgun.

may suck but the law of our land

I was forced to sell all my handguns to move to my current state, and I deeply resented it. I'm not going to give my tax dollars to any NC county that feels a similar need to screw with my rights.

why did you sell your firearms instead of storage?

Can any NC pistol owners help me out with this decision?

Since I have no choice but to accept it, I want to pick a county where the purchase permit requirements are cursory and standardized: in a number of counties, it seems to be a $5, no fingerprint, 3 day process. While still prejudicial, this would at least allow me to quickly buy a new CCW piece and carry safely on my existing licenses (I verified FL at least is fine with this) while waiting the probably 3-4 month period it will take me to finish the state CCW process, which removes the need for the purchase permit at all. I'm not willing to be disarmed for 3-4 months in an unfamiliar locale. Which counties should I be looking at? Any suggestions?

well considering the sheriff will only issue a PPP or CHP to a resident of their county only shopping for a county is a mute point. oh and another couple of points to consider...you need to have a NC driver's license or state ID card to present to the sheriff to get your PPPs; to get those you need normally need to present a bank statement, or utility bill or some such proff of residence; and each sheriff sets their own residence requirement - some western county sheriffs have a year residency criteria ...

wabbit

ps: even in the bx/px you need a PPP

Bruce · Sep 30, 2012

I live in Alamance county and have only been back to NC this time a little over a year and I had no problem getting a permit to buy a handgun.

Pistol purchase permit requirement amounts to "may issue" in some NC counties

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