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Thread: Law governing Carry into Public events

  1. #1
    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Law governing Carry into Public events

    So, I don't feel I understand this completely. If an event is put on in a place where a Private Entity must aqcuire a permit, or pay to use public grounds, must they provide storage for firearms if they want to disarm attendees? I've attended a number of gun shows where loaded weapons were prohibited and I continue to see events that must require a permit to put on where "weapons of any kind" are on the "don'ts" list.

    The following statutes for consideration:

    13-3102.01. Storage of deadly weapons; definitions

    A. If an operator of a public establishment or a sponsor of a public event requests that a person carrying a deadly weapon remove the weapon, the operator or sponsor shall provide temporary and secure storage. The storage shall be readily accessible on entry into the establishment or event and allow for the immediate retrieval of the weapon on exit from the establishment or event.

    B. This section does not apply to the licensed premises of any public establishment or public event with a license issued pursuant to title 4.

    C. The operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event or the employee of the operator or sponsor or the agent of the sponsor, including a public entity or public employee, is not liable for acts or omissions pursuant to this section unless the operator, sponsor, employee or agent intended to cause injury or was grossly negligent.

    D. For the purposes of this section, "public establishment" and "public event" have the same meanings prescribed in section 13-3102.

    And the definitions from 13-3102:

    2. "Public establishment" means a structure, vehicle or craft that is owned, leased or operated by this state or a political subdivision of this state.

    3. "Public event" means a specifically named or sponsored event of limited duration that is either conducted by a public entity or conducted by a private entity with a permit or license granted by a public entity. Public event does not include an unsponsored gathering of people in a public place.

    Please enlighten me, if it is indeed unlawful to prohibit firearms from events such as this, what is the recourse which can be taken by the armed citizen who finds themselves discriminated against?

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    A private entity can have whatever policy they want regarding guns. They don't fall under the definition of "public" regarding the weapons storage laws.

    "Public" property is state and local government property. If you enter state or local government controlled property, the "operator" of that property has the option of banning weapons but must provide storage. Depsite the specifity of the storage requirements, it's ignored, and there is no penalty for them not following the law.

    We (AzCDL) got HB 2729 through the legislature last year to fix that, but the governor vetoed it.

    Gun shows usually ban loaded guns for safety (and probably liablity insurance) reasons. Too many people think there is a difference between a loaded gun and an "unloaded" gun when it comes to handling them

    Fred

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    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    I was referring specifically to events on property such as a fairground which require the private entity to acquire a permit.

  4. #4
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkebar View Post
    I was referring specifically to events on property such as a fairground which require the private entity to acquire a permit.
    The fairgrounds are "public" property, owned by some government entity.

    Apparently, they choose (they can do that) to not ban weapons (an unloaded gun is still a weapon under state law) on their property during the gun show but the gun show operator chooses, for safety and probably insurance reasons, or maybe even a condtion of their lease, to require unloaded guns in the show.

    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 09-28-2012 at 01:38 PM.

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    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    The fairgrounds are "public" property, owned by some government entity.

    Apparently, they choose (they can do that) to not ban weapons (an unloaded gun is still a weapon under state law) on their property during the gun show but the gun show operator chooses, for safety and probably insurance reasons, or maybe even a condtion of their lease, to require unloaded guns in the show.

    Fred
    What about other events? If they don't allow guns, is there a recourse?

  6. #6
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkebar View Post
    What about other events? If they don't allow guns, is there a recourse?
    If an event is held on private property, it may be open to the public, but since it's private property the owners of the property are free to set whatever gun policy they want and you have no recourse. It's no different than walking into the local Costco and seeing their "no weapons" sign.

    If an event is held on state or local government property and "operated" by a state or local government entity, they can ban firearms and are supposed to have accessible storage. If they don't, your only recourse is to sue them. The law does not provide any penalties if "they" choose to ignore the law, so your chance of success is doubtful.

    Keep in mind that if booze is sold at any of these events, a different set of laws kick in and if they ban firearms, they do not have to provide any storage.

    As far as recourse, the best path is to pursue changes in the law. If more people supported AzCDL's efforts at the legislature we could get a lot more good bills passed.

    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 09-29-2012 at 03:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Keep in mind that if booze is sold at any of these events, a different set of laws kick in and if they ban firearms, they do not have to provide any storage.
    This came to mind the last time I attended a Crossroads event at the Cardinals stadium. Alcohol was being sold/served which, to my interpretation of Title 4, means that every single visible firearm in the place was a blatant violation, regardless of it being unloaded on someone's hip and zip tied, or sitting on a table for sale.
    Last edited by Thoreau; 09-30-2012 at 03:27 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    If an event is held on private property, it may be open to the public, but since it's private property the owners of the property are free to set whatever gun policy they want and you have no recourse. It's no different than walking into the local Costco and seeing their "no weapons" sign.

    If an event is held on state or local government property and "operated" by a state or local government entity, they can ban firearms and are supposed to have accessible storage. If they don't, your only recourse is to sue them. The law does not provide any penalties if "they" choose to ignore the law, so your chance of success is doubtful.

    Keep in mind that if booze is sold at any of these events, a different set of laws kick in and if they ban firearms, they do not have to provide any storage.

    As far as recourse, the best path is to pursue changes in the law. If more people supported AzCDL's efforts at the legislature we could get a lot more good bills passed.

    Fred
    Well, I guess it's a good thing I joined the AZCDL yesterday at a gun show. Maybe we can get these inequities rectified.

  9. #9
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkebar View Post
    Well, I guess it's a good thing I joined the AZCDL yesterday at a gun show. Maybe we can get these inequities rectified.
    Congratulations on becoming a member and thank you for your donation!

    Are you coming to the annual meeting this Saturday (October 6th)?

    Fred

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    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Congratulations on becoming a member and thank you for your donation!

    Are you coming to the annual meeting this Saturday (October 6th)?

    Fred
    Unfortunately my work schedule interferes. If there are other meetings I'd love to attend but it seems to be an annual thing.

  11. #11
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkebar View Post
    Unfortunately my work schedule interferes. If there are other meetings I'd love to attend but it seems to be an annual thing.
    Right now it's an annual thing. This year's meeting is sold out and we're expecting 500 attendees.

    We alternate between Phoenix and Tucson. During election years we always hold them in Phoenix so the attending politicians (we get plenty) can see the enthusiastic consituents who expect them to support the restoration of the right to bear arms in Arizona.

    Because almost half membership is in the Tucson area, we started having our annual meetings there. As other population centers produce more AzCDL members, we'll look into having more meetings.

    Fred

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    When I go into a gun show where they require the gun be unloaded and a nylon zip-tie is placed through the action, I always have a loaded magazine concealed on me. Plus a means of cutting the tie.

    I would never violate their zip-tie of my gun for spite or pride or to make a point. It's just that the idea of carrying a completely useless gun is an absurdity I cannot abide.

    I have heard people say that they conceal a small backup piece, loaded of course, when going to a gun show. I wouldn't go that far myself, but I do appreciate their point.

  13. #13
    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnufIs2Much View Post
    When I go into a gun show where they require the gun be unloaded and a nylon zip-tie is placed through the action, I always have a loaded magazine concealed on me. Plus a means of cutting the tie.

    I would never violate their zip-tie of my gun for spite or pride or to make a point. It's just that the idea of carrying a completely useless gun is an absurdity I cannot abide.

    I have heard people say that they conceal a small backup piece, loaded of course, when going to a gun show. I wouldn't go that far myself, but I do appreciate their point.
    Yeah, I feel the same way. Sometimes I do just ignore what is asked of me. We have a saying at my place of work that goes: "You are the person responsible for your safety." It's funny how there are "no weapons" signs at the front entrance...
    Last edited by clarkebar; 10-14-2012 at 10:24 AM.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    What's the purpose? I've gone thru that zip tie thing at the Pima County Fairgrounds and the last time just opted to lock the gun in the truck (loaded). Zip tied 1911's and Serpa holsters don't mix.


    Ohh... you have a BUG... and a knife and a... Get real. What the hell for?

    "When I go into a gun show where they require the gun be unloaded and a nylon zip-tie is placed through the action, I always have a loaded magazine concealed on me." Yeah? What about the not so concealed one you just removed from the pistol for the zip tie?

    'I would never violate their zip-tie of my gun for spite or pride or to make a point. It's just that the idea of carrying a completely useless gun is an absurdity I cannot abide.'

    No... it's because some gunshow security dudes will jack your ass up... 'prob'ly at gunpoint and call the Sheriff. Abide THAT!


    Please... spare me. You've never been to an AZ gun show armed.
    Last edited by Sonora Rebel; 10-15-2012 at 06:34 PM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    What's the purpose? I've gone thru that zip tie thing at the Pima County Fairgrounds and the last time just opted to lock the gun in the truck (loaded). Zip tied 1911's and Serpa holsters don't mix.


    Ohh... you have a BUG... and a knife and a... Get real. What the hell for?

    "When I go into a gun show where they require the gun be unloaded and a nylon zip-tie is placed through the action, I always have a loaded magazine concealed on me." Yeah? What about the not so concealed one you just removed from the pistol for the zip tie?

    'I would never violate their zip-tie of my gun for spite or pride or to make a point. It's just that the idea of carrying a completely useless gun is an absurdity I cannot abide.'

    No... it's because some gunshow security dudes will jack your ass up... 'prob'ly at gunpoint and call the Sheriff. Abide THAT!


    Please... spare me. You've never been to an AZ gun show armed.
    I haven't been able to discern a clear message here...

  16. #16
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkebar View Post
    I haven't been able to discern a clear message here...
    Reading comprehesion problem? 'EnufIs2Much' is fulla crap! Read what he wrote.

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnufIs2Much View Post
    When I go into a gun show where they require the gun be unloaded and a nylon zip-tie is placed through the action, I always have a loaded magazine concealed on me. Plus a means of cutting the tie.

    I would never violate their zip-tie of my gun for spite or pride or to make a point. It's just that the idea of carrying a completely useless gun is an absurdity I cannot abide.

    I have heard people say that they conceal a small backup piece, loaded of course, when going to a gun show. I wouldn't go that far myself, but I do appreciate their point.
    IMO the unloaded and zip tie violates the spirit and intent of 13-3102.01. Storage of deadly weapons; definitions. They don't forbid the bring of guns into a gun show but they attempt to make it so that the firearm is not readily available. I will not comply.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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