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LEOs wetting themselves over OC...

Citizen

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Nov 15, 2006
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18,269
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Fairfax Co., VA
Hmmm. I wonder if some of this "you'll be the first one shot in a robbery" is projection. Meaning, those cops are saying it because that's what they'd do. I'm gonna stop there and let the implications of that thought sink in.
 

Redbaron007

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Sep 10, 2011
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SW MO
Hmmm. I wonder if some of this "you'll be the first one shot in a robbery" is projection. Meaning, those cops are saying it because that's what they'd do. I'm gonna stop there and let the implications of that thought sink in.


Something I have thought of.....regardless of who says it. :confused:
 

mwaterous

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Messages
197
Location
New Mexico
Then you should also know how if you don't have the button fully depressed and attempt to pull up the gun gets caught and you either have to pull very hard (or at least on mine) or else have to push it slightly down and finish pressing the button in before pulling back up.

My point there was that a holster with a retention device is fine, but in the end it's just a device to carry your weapon. You should be employing situational awareness, training, and even role playing (or some sort of practice) to ensure that if you run into that one in a million person who's got the balls to try and disarm you... that they're going to regret every moment of it. Even more than that, I was suggesting that open carrying in no way makes you a target... nor does cc, nor does... the things that make you a target are being in the wrong place at the wrong time, looking like you're an easy target... all kinds of things can make you a target, but OC is either very low on that list or not on it at all.


Simply asking how my day is is fine. The second he starts asking more questions is when I'm looking to terminate the contact as I'm going to take it he is fishing because that is what cops do. You also say "give up any other rights" which implies that we give some rights. Why do I have to give up any rights?

You misread me; by "other" I mean in addition to the ones granted by the 2a. I'm suggesting that while you protect your 2a rights you should not give up any others to do so. While some people are calmed by the presence of police force, that's all it should be (a presence) up until an actual crime is committed. I'll never have an issue with one driving by me, or even waving, or anything else that can be considered going about their business. If they say "How goes?" they're being as friendly as any one else could hopefully be walking by. If they interrogate you without RAS, meeting ends.
 

Lasjayhawk

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Jul 21, 2012
Messages
289
Location
Las Vegas
What I don't get is the logic of "I have to make sure you aren't a felon in possession of a firearm". Why don't they check the ID of everyone near a school or a park to make sure they aren't a sex offender? Why not pull over every driver to make sure they have a drivers license?
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Hmmm. I wonder if some of this "you'll be the first one shot in a robbery" is projection. Meaning, those cops are saying it because that's what they'd do. I'm gonna stop there and let the implications of that thought sink in.
Something I have thought of.....regardless of who says it. :confused:
It disturbed me most when I was told directly by an officer, "If I were a robber and saw you, you'd be the first one I shot." That's the thinking that a psychopathic robber would have. That it's the way a law enforcement officer is projecting his attitude towards being a robber is very, Very disturbing. I'm not particularly fond of psychopaths, whether they be robbers Or police.
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
What I don't get is the logic of "I have to make sure you aren't a felon in possession of a firearm". Why don't they check the ID of everyone near a school or a park to make sure they aren't a sex offender? Why not pull over every driver to make sure they have a drivers license?

That's because there is no logic, and they know it. They know very well what probable cause and reasonable suspicion are. Just call their bluff by politely, verbally, refusing consent.
 

SFCRetired

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Oct 29, 2008
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Montgomery, Alabama, USA
Let's expand this a little bit: LEOs don't like OC and come up with all sorts of arguments against it because it encroaches on an area that many see as a prerogative of law enforcement and not as a Constitutionally-protected right. Following that line of reasoning, they cannot, and will not, come up with logical arguments against a citizen openly carrying. Instead, they use the same emotional appeals (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) that the anti-gun folks and the out-and-out hoplophobes do.

When certain types of personalities perceive that they cannot win an argument by logic then, as stated above, they try for an emotional appeal. Should the emotional appeal be rejected and shown to be flawed by a presentation of factual evidence, then the next resort would seem to be threats with increasing elevation to the level of violence of one type or the other.

While I am not a psychiatrist (not crazy enough) nor psychologist, it appears to me that those who practice this sort of deceit, and who deceive themselves with it, are much closer to a clinical definition of mental illness than is one who, like the majority of us, routinely openly carries a weapon and regards it as a normal part of their lives. While there are those (thankfully very few) in our community who seek confrontation with law enforcement for a variety of reasons, most of us just want to be left alone to pursue our legal activities.
 

carolina guy

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Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,737
Location
Concord, NC
I think the whole like of thought of "what if everyone was OC, then the felons could OC as well" is such a load of hogwash. It is just as useful as a LEO saying "what if everyone who has a driver's license were to drive a car, why, those without one could drive as well...how could we tell the difference???" The answer is not to stop every car and check licenses every time they see a car.

One *could* ask the LEO is "don't you know the felons on your beat?" Isn't that part of their job to know the people and the trouble makers in their area?
 

mwaterous

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Messages
197
Location
New Mexico
What I don't get is the logic of "I have to make sure you aren't a felon in possession of a firearm". Why don't they check the ID of everyone near a school or a park to make sure they aren't a sex offender? Why not pull over every driver to make sure they have a drivers license?

Why do they even have to talk to you to figure that out? There's very few criminals who are overly calm under pressure. Just the act of an officer driving by slowly can set some to running -- sometimes just like our oc can deter crime, the presence of an officer will also make criminals change their mind. If they're criminals but not committing a crime, the same rules apply to them at that time as to us, no contact, no detainment. If the person in question is not a criminal at all, no harm no foul, nobodies day has been changed by the presence of an officer driving by, has it?

Dealing with law enforcement is a more important issue than referring to our weapons as... er, our firearms as weapons, as far as I see it. If a curious citizen wants to learn more and the first thing they are greeted with is an endless amount of hatred and near tinfoil hat conspiracy, why should they trust us any more than the officers we want them to distrust? If you want the benefit of the doubt, and to be treated like a non-criminal until you become a criminal, maybe it'd be a good idea to give LEOs the benefit of the doubt and treat them as humans up until they lose that right ("you" being used loosely, not just Lasjayhawk).
 

sudden valley gunner

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Dec 13, 2008
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16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Too easy. Doing a perfectly legal act that cannot ever be illegal is no reason for the dispatch of a LEO. Chewing bubble gum, and scratching your buttocks should never result in an interested party. Carrying a gun, which could easily be done by us (law abiding citizens) and is also done by "gangsters" is no reason to get your panties in a bunch if an interested party drives by to confirm that the situation is safe. That's their job. This quickly becomes a discussion of RAS - if there is none, the officer is continuing to do his/her job if s/he leaves you alone. If however they drive by and see you brandishing... or leaving a corner store at a high rate of speed... then s/he's also doing his job by detaining you.

Those people who are illegaly harassed are perfectly justified in being upset. Those people who go out and cause trouble only to try and prove their point outta be kicked in the nuts for being morons. Goes for both sides.

There are many things that are lawful and yet can be restricted or unlawful in certain situations so your argument holds no water.

It is a criminal offense in my state to drive without a drivers license, when I see someone enter a car and drive I should call the cops to make sure they are doing so legally.

I see someone pop a Sudafed for his cold, maybe he has been convicted of making meth and restricted from purchasing common cold remedies, should I call the cops to check him out?

I see someone fishing, I should call because maybe he is over limit and doesn't have the state issued permit to feed his family.

I see children playing at the end of a cul de sac I guess I should call the cops because I don't immediately see the parents...........oh wait.....:rolleyes:







Not every skunk will spray but when you see one, you clear a path, don't you. Is this being mean to a stunk? No, its being smart.

David, this analogy is spot on. Not every LEO is a skunk, but I cannot tell the difference visually.

Yea it is I love that one, I think I will tell Deputy Flo Simmon thenext time I see her........actually I don't think she likes meeting with us....:D.....
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Sep 12, 2010
Messages
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The Cadre
If a curious citizen wants to learn more and the first thing they are greeted with is an endless amount of hatred and near tinfoil hat conspiracy, why should they trust us any more than the officers we want them to distrust? If you want the benefit of the doubt, and to be treated like a non-criminal until you become a criminal, maybe it'd be a good idea to give LEOs the benefit of the doubt and treat them as humans up until they lose that right ("you" being used loosely, not just Lasjayhawk).


You are purposely ignoring the reasoning behind this proposed legislation, and the reasoning can be found in the statements of the legislator's behind the measure:

'Ray says the bill reinforces the constitutional rights of Utah residents."


Committee co-chairman Sen. Mark Madsen, R-Eagle Mountain, said there have been instances where "people are hauled off and persecuted" by "overzealous" police officers for "very benign behavior."

It appears that constitutional infringements have been happening to Utah citizens. These infringements do not appear to coming from meter readers or convenience store workers. It appears, and seems to be confirmed by legislators, these infringements are coming from police officers. And it seems to be happening frequently enough by a number of police officers that legislation is required to protect citizens from police.

The Constitution, and in particular the Bill of Rights long ago established that citizens have protection from the government and it's agents.

I find it incomprehensible that legislation is required in this day and age to restrain those that supposedly serve us.
 
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PistolPackingMomma

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Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,884
Location
SC
If you want the benefit of the doubt, and to be treated like a non-criminal until you become a criminal, maybe it'd be a good idea to give LEOs the benefit of the doubt and treat them as humans up until they lose that right.

If LEOs want the benefit of the doubt, then they can find another line of work. Officer Friendly is looking to do his job. Officer Friendly's job is to find a criminal. Officer Friendly is looking at YOU.

No one, especially cops, automatically get or "deserve" respect. It's not a right, and it's not something anyone is entitled to. My respect has to be earned, and someone whose very job is to investigate citizens is not going to get anything from me but the cooperation required by law. Will I respect a cop who gives up the thin blue line, like Regina Tasca? I respect her as a person, greatly, but I do not respect her former line of work. Her story is evidence of the corrupt, elitist mentality so prevalent in the law enforcement world, and until all LEO's give up this "privileged v. the mundanes" attitude and stop enforcing the petty rules of tyrants, I will have no respect for them or their chosen career.

YMMV.
 

hermannr

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Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
The one thing that disappointed me was there was not one single comment that said, hej guys, guess what, those with criminal intent hide their weapons, they just don't OC. That is just as true now and it was back in 1902 when the Idaho Supreme court made this ruling: http://www.guncite.com/court/state/70p609.html

Second...if it was such a "tactical disadvantage" why do almost all LE OC when on the job?
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Messages
1,020
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The Cadre
If LEOs want the benefit of the doubt, then they can find another line of work. Officer Friendly is looking to do his job. Officer Friendly's job is to find a criminal. Officer Friendly is looking at YOU.

No one, especially cops, automatically get or "deserve" respect. It's not a right, and it's not something anyone is entitled to. My respect has to be earned, and someone whose very job is to investigate citizens is not going to get anything from me but the cooperation required by law. Will I respect a cop who gives up the thin blue line, like Regina Tasca? I respect her as a person, greatly, but I do not respect her former line of work. Her story is evidence of the corrupt, elitist mentality so prevalent in the law enforcement world, and until all LEO's give up this "privileged v. the mundanes" attitude and stop enforcing the petty rules of tyrants, I will have no respect for them or their chosen career.

YMMV.

Where's the "thank you" button when you need one?

Thank you PPM.
 

Deanimator

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Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Messages
2,083
Location
Rocky River, OH, U.S.A.
If you want the benefit of the doubt, and to be treated like a non-criminal until you become a criminal, maybe it'd be a good idea to give LEOs the benefit of the doubt and treat them as humans up until they lose that right ("you" being used loosely, not just Lasjayhawk).
I neither need nor want the "benefit of the doubt", and don't expect to get it.

I DEMAND adherence to the law by cops. Given the example of Daniel Harless in Canton (and many more) it's hardly a foregone conclusion that you'll GET it, but it should be demanded and utterly non-negotiable. If they could just manage not to commit serious crimes, especially crimes of violence, I wouldn't care if they did anything else, or indeed if they ever left the station house.

A lot of people seem to have a strange need to be patted on the head by cops and told they're a good boy or girl.

I'm not one of them.
 
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Lasjayhawk

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Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Messages
289
Location
Las Vegas
Lasjayhawk said:
What I don't get is the logic of "I have to make sure you aren't a felon in possession of a firearm". Why don't they check the ID of everyone near a school or a park to make sure they aren't a sex offender? Why not pull over every driver to make sure they have a drivers license?


Why do they even have to talk to you to figure that out? There's very few criminals who are overly calm under pressure. Just the act of an officer driving by slowly can set some to running -- sometimes just like our oc can deter crime, the presence of an officer will also make criminals change their mind. If they're criminals but not committing a crime, the same rules apply to them at that time as to us, no contact, no detainment. If the person in question is not a criminal at all, no harm no foul, nobodies day has been changed by the presence of an officer driving by, has it?

Dealing with law enforcement is a more important issue than referring to our weapons as... er, our firearms as weapons, as far as I see it. If a curious citizen wants to learn more and the first thing they are greeted with is an endless amount of hatred and near tinfoil hat conspiracy, why should they trust us any more than the officers we want them to distrust? If you want the benefit of the doubt, and to be treated like a non-criminal until you become a criminal, maybe it'd be a good idea to give LEOs the benefit of the doubt and treat them as humans up until they lose that right ("you" being used loosely, not just Lasjayhawk).

I'm wondering how you got that I would be anything less than polite out of my comment? The point I was going for was that if you started checking papers of every person in the park, or everyone driving a car, you would have half the community at city hall with pitchforks. That's why they don't do it. But step on a few open carriers, who cares, they won't have a major uproar on their hands.

Am I polite? I try hard to be, always. Will I give LEOs the benefit of the doubt? If I don't know them already, no. They are just another stranger to me. And if I gave strangers the benefit of the doubt, I wouldn't need a sidearm, now would I. :lol:
 
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mwaterous

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Jun 1, 2012
Messages
197
Location
New Mexico
There are many things that are lawful and yet can be restricted or unlawful in certain situations so your argument holds no water.

It is a criminal offense in my state to drive without a drivers license, when I see someone enter a car and drive I should call the cops to make sure they are doing so legally.

Point taken, but I'm not talking about pulling people over to check their license. I'm not talking about checking to see if someone has a CC permit, or OC permit, or anything of the sort. I'm talking about police doing their job, so long as that job doesn't interfere with the lives of anyone but those who are breaking the law. I'm trying to think of it as a situation where they aren't overstepping the boundaries of their position, and especially not that of the law - if there are enough reports from concerned citizens about <insert activity here> I think it's their job to appear. Not to interfere, just to appear. Isn't that their job?
 

mwaterous

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Jun 1, 2012
Messages
197
Location
New Mexico
I'm wondering how you got that I would be anything less than polite out of my comment? The point I was going for was that if you started checking papers of every person in the park, or everyone driving a car, you would have half the community at city hall with pitchforks. That's why they don't do it. But step on a few open carriers, who cares, they won't have a major uproar on their hands.

Hmm, I should have said that "you" meant anyone, and not just Lasjayhawk but not Lasjayhawk. I just happened to be responding to your post, so I apologize that I might have inferred something about your demeanor. There are some on here who discuss the subject quite lucidly, I was referring to the group that talk about it like there's a full on religious war going on.

I guess I'm being too idealistic here. I'm trying to make sure I see things from both sides of the coin, and it's often contrary to the experiences of people here who have had much more time in the community than myself.
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Point taken, but I'm not talking about pulling people over to check their license. I'm not talking about checking to see if someone has a CC permit, or OC permit, or anything of the sort. I'm talking about police doing their job, so long as that job doesn't interfere with the lives of anyone but those who are breaking the law. I'm trying to think of it as a situation where they aren't overstepping the boundaries of their position, and especially not that of the law - if there are enough reports from concerned citizens about <insert activity here> I think it's their job to appear. Not to interfere, just to appear. Isn't that their job?

So how close do you let a skunk get to you?
 

mwaterous

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New Mexico
So how close do you let a skunk get to you?

I'm sorry but as much as that was quotable quote material, it's only valid if you're paranoid enough to think every single police officer is out to get you. Are you that paranoid? I'm sure there's reasons to be; it's better to be prepared than to be surprised. But in reality, not every officer is out to get you. I'm sure there's at least one in this world that signed up for altruistic reasons... but I'm sure I'll be schooled on why that's a ridiculous thought in 3, 2, 1
 
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