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Thread: Tactical Training Facility DENIED in Orange County - How'd this slip past us?

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    Tactical Training Facility DENIED in Orange County - How'd this slip past us?

    http://www2.orangenews.com/news/2012...ng-ar-2236693/

    http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2...9272012/727733

    The original story I heard did not specify that it was for LEO only. If that's the case I don't mind.
    Last edited by T Dubya; 09-27-2012 at 11:08 PM. Reason: Add another link
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Anybody have a set of jumper cables? My sympathy seems to be not working.

    While I do not doubt that LEAs need tactical training (just read the threads here on OCDO about their poor performances) and while I agree that the military ought to be able to provide the highest level of training, I do not see either group needing private enterprise to be the provider of that training to them at the exclusion of the general public.

    This is a wonderful way of reminding LEA and the military that we are really all equal.

    stay safe.
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    Looks like the commission was worried about 50 cal BMG rounds ... so no range ...

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    It didn't slip.. some of us were well aware, having went to a few of the BoS meeting (IMHO) this wasn't going to benefit regular folks.

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Anybody have a set of jumper cables? My sympathy seems to be not working.

    While I do not doubt that LEAs need tactical training (just read the threads here on OCDO about their poor performances) and while I agree that the military ought to be able to provide the highest level of training, I do not see either group needing private enterprise to be the provider of that training to them at the exclusion of the general public.

    This is a wonderful way of reminding LEA and the military that we are really all equal.

    stay safe.

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    Regular Member B. Reddy's Avatar
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    Best be bringin' your "A" Game to Orange County.

    First off, it sucks that no range time was planned for mere citizens. At least when the brick company was there making all that noise and whatnot, I could still buy some bricks!

    The public hearing had EIGHTY PEOPLE testifying against the proposal and NOT ONE for it. Maybe proposing a facility with "helicopters", "armored vehicles", ".50 cal weapons" and "English Immersion Training" really got some people riled up.

    Secondly, are you seeing these levels of grass roots opposition in your counties?

    In just the last several years, Orange Co. voters have battled WalMart and another global company, General Shale mining and won! Well, maybe "won" is the wrong word, since Shale took their bat & went home, leaving 70 workers idled.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    For the local shooting community to not support this facility is a terribly short sighted event. Gun owners missed the boat on this one.
    James Reynolds

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    For the local shooting community to not support this facility is a terribly short sighted event. Gun owners missed the boat on this one.
    It's not often I disagree with you Jim....but the local shooting community would have been treated like poor relations. They would never have gotten to use it.
    If I can't fish in your pond, you can't fill it with my water!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Reddy View Post
    Best be bringin' your "A" Game to Orange County.

    First off, it sucks that no range time was planned for mere citizens. At least when the brick company was there making all that noise and whatnot, I could still buy some bricks!

    The public hearing had EIGHTY PEOPLE testifying against the proposal and NOT ONE for it. Maybe proposing a facility with "helicopters", "armored vehicles", ".50 cal weapons" and "English Immersion Training" really got some people riled up.

    Secondly, are you seeing these levels of grass roots opposition in your counties?

    In just the last several years, Orange Co. voters have battled WalMart and another global company, General Shale mining and won! Well, maybe "won" is the wrong word, since Shale took their bat & went home, leaving 70 workers idled.
    The Walmart issue was a done deal until the anti-Walmart folks figured out they had a media friendly bat they could use. They brought in all sorts of outside folks who were probably lied to about the situation, but were all too willing to get some free press time. The end result: they moved the store site less than a mile down the road, where it is currently under construction.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 10-01-2012 at 12:37 AM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It's not often I disagree with you Jim....but the local shooting community would have been treated like poor relations. They would never have gotten to use it.
    If I can't fish in your pond, you can't fill it with my water!
    Don - I understand what you are saying, but sometimes we have to take baby steps. I think that if the community supported this, they'd find themselves in a good place later on.
    James Reynolds

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Don - I understand what you are saying, but sometimes we have to take baby steps..
    Philip....how did you get Proshooters password and what have you done with him?
    Last edited by peter nap; 10-01-2012 at 10:05 AM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Philip....how did you get Proshooters password and what have you done with him?
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    While I like your concept....

    Jim, I have to agree with Don on this one. It would have worked out that future public ranges would have to contend with the "there is already THAT other range, who needs another one." concept.
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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    Jim, I have to agree with Don on this one. It would have worked out that future public ranges would have to contend with the "there is already THAT other range, who needs another one." concept.
    You guys are missing the forest for the trees.
    James Reynolds

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    You guys are missing the forest for the trees.
    Aside from my concern for fellow Gun Owners Jim, I don't have a dog in this fight. I have my own range plus I belong to an extremly well built and maintained club....

    So in the spirit of fairness, convince me.

    My two concerns are that Police ranges are never opened with free access to the public (I like to remember the line from blade runner. "If you're not one of us, you're little people")

    Second, when evaluating new ranges or expanding existing ranges, local planning departments look at heavy metal pollution of soil and ground water, noise pollution, safety zones, future residential and commercial building nearby, Etc, and set limits on the number and size of ranges based on that and most localities will use any excuse to refuse zoning of shooting ranges.

    My point is that a police range that will not serve the general population of the area, are taking the reserved space a range that will be for the residents could have used.

    Your turn

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Aside from my concern for fellow Gun Owners Jim, I don't have a dog in this fight. I have my own range plus I belong to an extremly well built and maintained club....

    So in the spirit of fairness, convince me.

    My two concerns are that Police ranges are never opened with free access to the public (I like to remember the line from blade runner. "If you're not one of us, you're little people")

    Second, when evaluating new ranges or expanding existing ranges, local planning departments look at heavy metal pollution of soil and ground water, noise pollution, safety zones, future residential and commercial building nearby, Etc, and set limits on the number and size of ranges based on that and most localities will use any excuse to refuse zoning of shooting ranges.

    My point is that a police range that will not serve the general population of the area, are taking the reserved space a range that will be for the residents could have used.

    Your turn

    Ok....you have to understand that this is not a police range, meaning a government owned facility. This is a facility run by a privately owned company. While their initial and main focus will be training LE and military, that doesn't preclude them from opening it up to the public in the future.

    It is much easier to convince the public that the range facility is needed to benefit the LE segment, than if you just opened a public range. Once the range is open for business and is shown to not have a negative impact on the public, opening it up to other uses becomes much easier.


    That's my .02
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    A good point

    You made a good point, I will concede it is possible. Human nature keeps me unconvinced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Ok....you have to understand that this is not a police range, meaning a government owned facility. This is a facility run by a privately owned company. While their initial and main focus will be training LE and military, that doesn't preclude them from opening it up to the public in the future.

    It is much easier to convince the public that the range facility is needed to benefit the LE segment, than if you just opened a public range. Once the range is open for business and is shown to not have a negative impact on the public, opening it up to other uses becomes much easier.


    That's my .02
    THE PROBLEM Jim, Is that if their CUP(conditional use permit) POD(plan of development) states that this is a law enforcement training range. If they do then we as "munchkins,dwarves,gnomes" and other types of "little people" are SOL. The reason we are SOL is that in order to change a CUP or POD requires the same level of county and public hearing involvement then as it would up front. And by the time this range is up and built and run for a few years and then they want to expand or open to the public all hell will break loose particularly in orange county. It will bring out everyone living soul and then some in a three to ten mile radius complaing about the noise and why since they can't close the existing range they don't want to expand it one inch. I really wish you could have seen the planning meeting in Fluvanna last year for the expansion of Central VA Sporting Clays. Fluvanna like Orange is a suburb for Charlottesville. The opposition to CVSC expanding was such that you would have thought the man was skinning babies and selling lightshades instead of running a shooting facility.

    Also be honest do you actually think a facility whose business plan is focused and geared at LE training is really going to open to the public? Clicking our heels and hoping and wishing isn't going to get the everyman onto that range.

    Unless this or any other range is like a Thunder Ranch or Gunsite and offer both LE and citizen training opportunities it's not going to get too much support here. I like the opening line from Gunsite's homepage "Gunsite offers firearms training to elite military personnel, law enforcement officers and free citizens of the US."
    Last edited by 67GT390FB; 10-02-2012 at 02:01 PM.

  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67GT390FB View Post
    THE PROBLEM Jim, Is that if their CUP(conditional use permit) POD(plan of development) states that this is a law enforcement training range. If they do then we as "munchkins,dwarves,gnomes" and other types of "little people" are SOL. The reason we are SOL is that in order to change a CUP or POD requires the same level of county and public hearing involvement then as it would up front. And by the time this range is up and built and run for a few years and then they want to expand or open to the public all hell will break loose particularly in orange county. It will bring out everyone living soul and then some in a three to ten mile radius complaing about the noise and why since they can't close the existing range they don't want to expand it one inch. I really wish you could have seen the planning meeting in Fluvanna last year for the expansion of Central VA Sporting Clays. Fluvanna like Orange is a suburb for Charlottesville. The opposition to CVSC expanding was such that you would have thought the man was skinning babies and selling lightshades instead of running a shooting facility.

    Also be honest do you actually think a facility whose business plan is focused and geared at LE training is really going to open to the public? Clicking our heels and hoping and wishing isn't going to get the everyman onto that range.

    Unless this or any other range is like a Thunder Ranch or Gunsite and offer both LE and citizen training opportunities it's not going to get too much support here. I like the opening line from Gunsite's homepage "Gunsite offers firearms training to elite military personnel, law enforcement officers and free citizens of the US."
    Thank you Joe!
    You beat me to it. Also, the LEA's that contract with the range will specify minimum facilities dedicated to their agency and certain Security and non disclosure provisions. Since the Agency is spending our money they will be the big client. There is no question that the public would be left out in the cold.

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