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Thread: East St. Louis -- no more 2A, 4A or 5A ??

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    East St. Louis -- no more 2A, 4A or 5A ??

    http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2012/09/...east-st-louis/
    Among the new rules:

    **Minors are to be off the streets at ten o’clock on both weeknights and weekend nights.

    **Minors on the street during school hours will be arrested on sight.

    **Police will also perform I.D. checks on street corners and conduct gun searches, and Parks says he won’t hesitate to call in the National Guard if the spike in violence continues.


    ...


    Asked about Constitutional concerns, and the need for probable cause, Parks says the recent wave of crime is the probable cause and justifies the extreme new measures.

    “Vehicles that are moving will be stopped and searched for guns, weapons, drugs, and open alcohol and any other violations that are taking place,” Parks later told KMOX’s Mark Reardon. “People who are walking, people who are bicycling, can be stopped and searched for the same and, when it comes to state IDs, we’re going to be confirming that state IDs are in place for everyone involved.”
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Just another one for the record for the racists.

    Another black man ignoring the constitution and stomping on the right of citizens.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    If East St. Louis has a functioning police union, the rank and file are going to be told to ignore the orders, since they are so blatantly unconstitutional that any cop who obeys them will automatically pierce his own qualified immunity, leaving him open to suit as an individual.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    If East St. Louis has a functioning police union, the rank and file are going to be told to ignore the orders, since they are so blatantly unconstitutional that any cop who obeys them will automatically pierce his own qualified immunity, leaving him open to suit as an individual.
    And I was getting all my gear together for a road trip to ESL, figuring I could make a large bundle by getting arrested for everything but a monir out after curfew.

    Some of these draconian measures were employed in American cities in the past, and they actually had a positive impact on crime. However, the cost of learning that it is not a good idea to violate constitutional rights was part of what led to such measures being abandoned.

    Frustration is a hard thing to live with. For several reasons it is good to see that the powers that be in ESL are frustrated.

    What I am not seeing is the mayor and police saying anything about holding the parents responsible for the behavior of their little angels. Start making life miserable for the parents and pretty soon Johnny and Suzy are going to stop acting out.

    OTOH, if there was some way to impose a law regarding the failure to secure trousers about the waistline, .... And yet a benefit of thugettes wearing their trou down near their knees is that they cannot run very well. It does make it easier to catch them.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    Is this for real? Surely there isn't a mayor that is so incredibly ignorant that he will light a match under the Constitution and follow through with these egregious violations of human rights. This is certainly insanity. They cannot skirt the entire Constitution because they are unable to control crime in their city. I would suggest investigating corruption in the police department that is in charge of enforcing the law in this part of the city, because if crime is this bad the enforcement has been bought and paid for.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    If East St. Louis has a functioning police union, the rank and file are going to be told to ignore the orders, since they are so blatantly unconstitutional that any cop who obeys them will automatically pierce his own qualified immunity, leaving him open to suit as an individual.
    Like they did in Aurora?

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    I want to see an interview with the City Attorney in East St Louis, the lawyer had to get a degree out of a crackerjack box to have even let the mayor read more tahn two sentences into that proclamation.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Is this for real? Surely there isn't a mayor that is so incredibly ignorant that he will light a match under the Constitution and follow through with these egregious violations of human rights. This is certainly insanity. They cannot skirt the entire Constitution because they are unable to control crime in their city. I would suggest investigating corruption in the police department that is in charge of enforcing the law in this part of the city, because if crime is this bad the enforcement has been bought and paid for.
    Don't forget, this is Illinois...not exactly known for Constitutionality and even dealing.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    Like they did in Aurora?
    Like they did in Cleveland when Mayor Frank Jackson ordered the police to enforce a state preempted assault weapons ban. The Cleveland police union told its members to disobey the order and they did, not because they're great guys, but because they like living indoors and feeding their families.

    The Aurora thing was almost certainly a spur of the moment bad idea.

    The proposed East St. Louis thing is a broad based criminal conspiracy to violate Federal civil rights on a massive basis. Even better, the conspirators have thoughtfully PUBLICLY attached their names and faces to the conspiracy.

    "Asps, very dangerous. You go first." usually only works in Indiana Jones movies and with Islamists. I doubt that the East St. Louis PD is motivated enough to pray five times a day for free beer.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Is this for real? Surely there isn't a mayor that is so incredibly ignorant that he will light a match under the Constitution and follow through with these egregious violations of human rights. This is certainly insanity. They cannot skirt the entire Constitution because they are unable to control crime in their city. I would suggest investigating corruption in the police department that is in charge of enforcing the law in this part of the city, because if crime is this bad the enforcement has been bought and paid for.
    Remember, this guy looks up to the higher ranking person of his political persuasion, and his co-R$%^& that has been stomping on the constituition almost as well as FDR did. Lead by example is what they taught you in the Army...you think?

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    The Aurora thing was almost certainly a spur of the moment bad idea.
    Bad idea? You clearly don't know what happened. They got to arrest a BG. They also got to illegally temporarily arrest a bunch of LAC at gun point with no negative consequences whatsoever.

    How could you call that a bad idea?
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Like they did in Cleveland when Mayor Frank Jackson ordered the police to enforce a state preempted assault weapons ban. The Cleveland police union told its members to disobey the order and they did, not because they're great guys, but because they like living indoors and feeding their families.

    The Aurora thing was almost certainly a spur of the moment bad idea.

    The proposed East St. Louis thing is a broad based criminal conspiracy to violate Federal civil rights on a massive basis. Even better, the conspirators have thoughtfully PUBLICLY attached their names and faces to the conspiracy.

    "Asps, very dangerous. You go first." usually only works in Indiana Jones movies and with Islamists. I doubt that the East St. Louis PD is motivated enough to pray five times a day for free beer.
    Cite?

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    They cannot skirt the entire Constitution
    Why not? TSA does it everyday and nobody seems to do anything about them.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Bad idea? You clearly don't know what happened. They got to arrest a BG. They also got to illegally temporarily arrest a bunch of LAC at gun point with no negative consequences whatsoever.

    How could you call that a bad idea?
    The lawsuits haven't started... YET.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    Cite?
    It was reported in the Cleveland Plain Dealer at the time.

    Jackson was subsequently CRUSHED in the State Supreme Court.

    Preemption of local gun laws is alive and well in Ohio.

    You should be able to find it if you want to.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    It was reported in the Cleveland Plain Dealer at the time.

    Jackson was subsequently CRUSHED in the State Supreme Court.

    Preemption of local gun laws is alive and well in Ohio.

    You should be able to find it if you want to.
    Perhaps he could, but why should he? After all, you are the one who stated it and therefore should be able and willing to back it up. Or should I be able to say anything at all no matter how strange and then demand that you be the one to find the site to back up my words or go with it must be true because you can't counter it with a site?

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mohawk001 View Post
    Perhaps he could, but why should he? After all, you are the one who stated it and therefore should be able and willing to back it up. Or should I be able to say anything at all no matter how strange and then demand that you be the one to find the site to back up my words or go with it must be true because you can't counter it with a site?
    It's hardly Art Bell stuff. It was widely reported in Ohio media.

    Don't trust me.

    Trust your own eyes.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    It's hardly Art Bell stuff. It was widely reported in Ohio media.

    Don't trust me.

    Trust your own eyes.

    from OCDO rules, the person making a statement gets to provide the citation

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    Folks should still do their own due diligence, but if you get called on a statement you get to back it up, not tell folks to find it themselves.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    from OCDO rules, the person making a statement gets to provide the citation

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    Folks should still do their own due diligence, but if you get called on a statement you get to back it up, not tell folks to find it themselves.
    Ok, change of plan.

    Anything I don't personally say or endorse is a lie.

    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article3613.html
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member TrailRunner's Avatar
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    Didn't these guys learn the lesson when Nagen et al had to justify their fertilizer to a New Orleans Federal District court? And they ended up on the losing side of that particular argument..

    And this ruttin' tripe in in St. Louis is even worse and far more blatant. Hope those folks learn the lesson fast and throw the bums out on the next election cycle, and sue in the meantime.

    Edit: Added link to news article about court case.

    Also; Doesn't arresting people for assembling break the 1st Amendment? Searching people based on clothing colors as well?
    Last edited by TrailRunner; 09-30-2012 at 06:59 PM.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    No sure why folks are riled up over what is happening in E. STL. I mean it is E. STL, in Illinois. If those folks don't like it but won't do anything about it that's up to them. Let'em do or not do, just sit back and watch the show, it'll be fun no matter which way it goes.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    oops.
    Last edited by skidmark; 10-07-2012 at 07:32 AM. Reason: double tap.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    No sure why folks are riled up over what is happening in E. STL. I mean it is E. STL, in Illinois. If those folks don't like it but won't do anything about it that's up to them. Let'em do or not do, just sit back and watch the show, it'll be fun no matter which way it goes.
    I can only speak for myself. I get all riled up because any time some minion of the State decides to try and get away with violating a Constitution right - regardless if it is outrageously egregious like this ESL fiasco or "merely" some cop telling me I cannot OC without a Concealed Handgun Permit*. This outrage will not be allowed to continue, and getting all riled up about it will only make that happen sooner rather than later. But it's the "little" violations that are the most worrying - somebody gets away with some Constitutional right so often they become convinced they can always get away with it, and then they start thinking they can violate even more Constuttional rights. It becomes the Death of a Thousand Cuts - not one of which by itself is really that bad, but when you add them all up ....

    I have lived in countries where there are only those privileges that the government sees fit to give you - for now. And I've seen when they decide to take back some of those privileges and the population (notice I do not call them citizens) can do nothing about it. Some folks sasy we here may some day come to that point, but it is going to take a lot to overcome our Constitutional rights if we ever do come to that.

    stay safe.

    * - Where I live we do not need no steenkin' permits to OC. I hear that in some places you really do need permission.
    Last edited by skidmark; 10-07-2012 at 07:33 AM.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I can only speak for myself. I get all riled up because any time some minion of the State decides to try and get away with violating a Constitution right - regardless if it is outrageously egregious like this ESL fiasco or "merely" some cop telling me I cannot OC without a Concealed Handgun Permit*. This outrage will not be allowed to continue, and getting all riled up about it will only make that happen sooner rather than later. But it's the "little" violations that are the most worrying - somebody gets away with some Constitutional right so often they become convinced they can always get away with it, and then they start thinking they can violate even more Constuttional rights. It becomes the Death of a Thousand Cuts - not one of which by itself is really that bad, but when you add them all up ....

    I have lived in countries where there are only those privileges that the government sees fit to give you - for now. And I've seen when they decide to take back some of those privileges and the population (notice I do not call them citizens) can do nothing about it. Some folks sasy we here may some day come to that point, but it is going to take a lot to overcome our Constitutional rights if we ever do come to that.

    stay safe.

    * - Where I live we do not need no steenkin' permits to OC. I hear that in some places you really do need permission.
    Do not misunderstand, I am in 100% agreement with you. However, you and I do not live in East ST. Louis. It is up to the citizens of East ST. Louis to reign in their local officials. We should provide moral support and moral outrage but it will require those directly affected to gain standing to affect any change for the better via the courts.

    Some cry foul over East St. Louis clothing ban
    East St. Louis officials institute youth curfew, put limits on clothing for males
    Questions about East St. Louis curfew

    Stomping your foot on the ground from Virgina don't mean nuttin to those on the "East Side." Heck, stomping my foot on the ground over here in MO don't mean nuttin to those on the East Side.

    Back atcha on the stay safe.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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