Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 52

Thread: be carful in your own back yard, or another cop shooting

  1. #1
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    mayberry, nc
    Posts
    2,258

    be carful in your own back yard, or another cop shooting

    i thought this was food for thought. i know some will say that the LEOs were justified in the shooting. but dang people, how many victims have to die?

    http://gunssavelives.net/self-defens...-her-backyard/
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  2. #2
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Montgomery, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    1,770
    Would be almost willing to bet that, at her age, she was more than a little confused, especially when the cops started yelling at her. Police need to recognize that the elderly only get more confused when you start screaming at them.

    Were the police justified in shooting her? Legally; probably. Morally/ethically; no.
    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Urban Skeet City, Alabama
    Posts
    897
    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Would be almost willing to bet that, at her age, she was more than a little confused, especially when the cops started yelling at her. Police need to recognize that the elderly only get more confused when you start screaming at them.

    Were the police justified in shooting her? Legally; probably. Morally/ethically; no.
    I agree with the lower paragraph(?). But she did call the police. OTOH, she fired a warning shot, and warning shots are NOT AUTHORIZED. If you want to warn someone, get a pump shotgun or SBS. If you want to defend yourself, carry a loaded gun and a functioning brain.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

  4. #4
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    S. Kitsap, Washington state
    Posts
    3,763
    If she in fact pointed the gun at the officers as alleged then the officers would be justified.

    If the officers made up the story and she was compliant and didn't threaten the officers then they need to be prosecuted

    really only two ways this can go.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

  5. #5
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    The Cadre
    Posts
    1,077
    Davis still maintained her sister wasn’t pointing at anyone and was moving too quickly to aim.

    http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/201...ng-ar-2244979/

    Mrs Towler's family said that she was not wearing her glasses or had her hearing aid in at the time.

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wor...-1226482547439

    911 call recording:

    http://www.wset.com/story/19668957/9...vista-shooting

    Police have responded to “several” calls from the victim in the past~Alta Vista Chief of Police Hamilton

    http://www2.godanriver.com/news/2012...er-ar-2220120/
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

  6. #6
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Elgin, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,202
    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Would be almost willing to bet that, at her age, she was more than a little confused, especially when the cops started yelling at her. Police need to recognize that the elderly only get more confused when you start screaming at them.

    Were the police justified in shooting her? Legally; probably. Morally/ethically; no.
    I suppose if there was such confusion that she was as justified in shooting the police as they were her.

    I've heard the slogan "Dial 911 and die", I just did not realize it was the responders that will kill you.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,197
    As many off duty officers, under cover officers and armed citizens have found out the hard way. One has to be very carefull what one does and how one reacts when uniform officers show up.

    Frist off 99 percent of the time uniformed officers have no idea who is or is not the bad guy.

    They recived a trouble call.

    They didin't get I am the home owner I am wearing a bright pink sweat shirt and I am armed with a shotgun. The bad guy is dressed in all black and is armed with a pistol. I have the bad guy on the ground at gun point. Yes dispatcher I see the officer coming I am wearing the bright pink sweat shirt I am the home owner the attacker is laying on the ground.

    What they get is SEND HELP SOME IS TRYING TO BREAK IN MY HOUSE SEND HELP. What do they look like I DON'T KNOW SEND HELP FAST.

    Not only to you have to know what to do when the bad guys show up ,you have to know what to do and how to behave when the good guys show up.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    500
    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: LEO bashing
    Last edited by John Pierce; 10-17-2012 at 09:35 AM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member pyite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Yorktown, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    131
    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: LEO bashing
    Last edited by John Pierce; 10-17-2012 at 09:35 AM.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    More evidence that it is YOUR job to defend yourself and your property.

    It is the cops' job to do the paperwork afterward.

    Stop asking them to do your job. And certainly don't expect it.

    In the big picture, whose fault is it when you tell the cops to do YOUR job, and they screw it up?
    Last edited by MAC702; 10-16-2012 at 08:17 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    I suppose if there was such confusion that she was as justified in shooting the police as they were her.

    I've heard the slogan "Dial 911 and die", I just did not realize it was the responders that will kill you.
    I have been shot at, knifed, etc and never called the police. First, their ability to catch someone after the fact is limited. And second, anything you tell them can be used against you in court, even if true.

    And lets say that you have armed criminals about and you call the cops...they show up and ask you to disarm (crooks are still running around) ... they're freaking nuts to think one should disarm. Cops don't like to work in an environment where citizens are armed? Move to another country or get a new job. Policemen safety does not trump mine.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I have been shot at, knifed, etc and never called the police. First, their ability to catch someone after the fact is limited. And second, anything you tell them can be used against you in court, even if true.

    And lets say that you have armed criminals about and you call the cops...they show up and ask you to disarm (crooks are still running around) ... they're freaking nuts to think one should disarm. Cops don't like to work in an environment where citizens are armed? Move to another country or get a new job. Policemen safety does not trump mine.
    well said
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Fort Riley, , USA
    Posts
    19
    From a LEO point of view
    When you get out of your patrol car on scene to a call that involves a weapon everything goes into warp speed. Trying to figure out whats going on, where the weapon is, who's involved it gets hectic. I put someone who drew their weapon in self defense in handcuffs. It lasted about 2 minutes while I figured out what went down. He was agitated and yelling when I arrived so with no description or any other mean of identification than a name I couldn't risk that he wasn't the aggressor who had just disarmed the victim. I then uncuffed him, apologized and let him put his gun in his holster. It's all about what the officer knows or more importantly what they DON'T know. It's way too easy to arm chair quarterback law enforcement. I wasn't there, I can't judge someone's actions based off a news report. When you have the football you gotta pass, hand it off, run with it or throw it away. Make your decision based off the defense and pray it doesn't end up as a loss.

  14. #14
    Regular Member moonie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    High Point NC
    Posts
    253
    Quote Originally Posted by PotterMP View Post
    From a LEO point of view
    When you get out of your patrol car on scene to a call that involves a weapon everything goes into warp speed. Trying to figure out whats going on, where the weapon is, who's involved it gets hectic. I put someone who drew their weapon in self defense in handcuffs. It lasted about 2 minutes while I figured out what went down. He was agitated and yelling when I arrived so with no description or any other mean of identification than a name I couldn't risk that he wasn't the aggressor who had just disarmed the victim. I then uncuffed him, apologized and let him put his gun in his holster. It's all about what the officer knows or more importantly what they DON'T know. It's way too easy to arm chair quarterback law enforcement. I wasn't there, I can't judge someone's actions based off a news report. When you have the football you gotta pass, hand it off, run with it or throw it away. Make your decision based off the defense and pray it doesn't end up as a loss.
    Guilty until proven innocent, we understand.
    We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.

    Thomas Jefferson

  15. #15
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,272
    Quote Originally Posted by PotterMP View Post
    From a LEO point of view
    When you get out of your patrol car on scene to a call that involves a weapon everything goes into warp speed. Trying to figure out whats going on, where the weapon is, who's involved it gets hectic. I put someone who drew their weapon in self defense in handcuffs. It lasted about 2 minutes while I figured out what went down. He was agitated and yelling when I arrived so with no description or any other mean of identification than a name I couldn't risk that he wasn't the aggressor who had just disarmed the victim. I then uncuffed him, apologized and let him put his gun in his holster. It's all about what the officer knows or more importantly what they DON'T know. It's way too easy to arm chair quarterback law enforcement. I wasn't there, I can't judge someone's actions based off a news report. When you have the football you gotta pass, hand it off, run with it or throw it away. Make your decision based off the defense and pray it doesn't end up as a loss.
    Does it ever occur to a LEO that you place a citizen in peril by cuffing him? Two minutes is can be a very long time. Especially if LE does not know if every participant in a incident is accounted for.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  16. #16
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,272
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Fort Riley, , USA
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by moonie View Post
    Guilty until proven innocent, we understand.
    If you draw your firearm on someone in KS you commit the crime of Aggravated Assault.
    KSA 21-3408: Assault. Assault is intentionally placing another person in reasonable apprehension of immediate bodily harm.
    KSA 21-3410: Aggravated assault. Aggravated assault is an assault, as defined in K.S.A. 21-3408 and amendments thereto, committed: (a) With a deadly weapon;
    You are JUSTIFIED in doing it by self defense
    KSA 21-5222. Use of force in defense of a person. [Amends K.S.A. 2010 Supp. § 21-3211]
    (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent it
    appears to such person and such person reasonably believes that such use of force is necessary to
    defend such person or a third person against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force.
    (b) A person is justified in the use of deadly force under circumstances described in
    subsection (a) if such person reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is necessary to
    prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or a third person.
    (c) Nothing in this section shall require a person to retreat if such person is using force to
    protect such person or a third person.

    You are not guilty of a crime until a judge or jury says you are. Its our job is to keep people safe, investigate crimes, and set up a meetings with a judge if there is enough evidence.

    In reference to handcuffing...an LEO takes responsibility for the personal safety of any person they detain in handcuffs or not.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by PotterMP View Post
    From a LEO point of view
    When you get out of your patrol car on scene to a call that involves a weapon everything goes into warp speed. Trying to figure out whats going on, where the weapon is, who's involved it gets hectic. I put someone who drew their weapon in self defense in handcuffs. It lasted about 2 minutes while I figured out what went down. He was agitated and yelling when I arrived so with no description or any other mean of identification than a name I couldn't risk that he wasn't the aggressor who had just disarmed the victim. I then uncuffed him, apologized and let him put his gun in his holster. It's all about what the officer knows or more importantly what they DON'T know. It's way too easy to arm chair quarterback law enforcement. I wasn't there, I can't judge someone's actions based off a news report. When you have the football you gotta pass, hand it off, run with it or throw it away. Make your decision based off the defense and pray it doesn't end up as a loss.
    well, I don't know the cop either, right? So I am just to assume he is not crazy? Yeah, right. Agitated and yelling is not grounds of any crime.

  19. #19
    Regular Member moonie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    High Point NC
    Posts
    253
    Quote Originally Posted by PotterMP View Post
    Its our job is to keep people safe
    Not according to SCOTUS...

    And to follow the rules, the cite for this is Warren v. District of Columbia.
    Last edited by moonie; 10-25-2012 at 11:51 AM.
    We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.

    Thomas Jefferson

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by PotterMP View Post
    ... Its our job is to keep people safe...
    How did I miss that?

    Could you please support this assertion citing your state or local laws?

    Note: a "mission statement" is nice, but is non-binding.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  21. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    What about "To protect and serve" on the side of the car.

    Oh, wait. Also non-binding. Never mind.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    What about "To protect and serve" on the side of the car...
    Didn't that change to "Treat them like a King"?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Fort Riley, , USA
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by moonie View Post
    Not according to SCOTUS...

    And to follow the rules, the cite for this is Warren v. District of Columbia.
    Thanks for the reference I hadn't see that before. From what I have read about it my opinion is it was a HUGE cluster **** in the dispatch dept.

    The way I approach my work is to assist and protect people. Not all law enforcement is bad.
    Last edited by PotterMP; 10-26-2012 at 09:55 AM.

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    be carful in your own back yard, or another cop shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by PotterMP View Post
    Thanks for the reference I hadn't see that before. From what I have read about it my opinion is it was a HUGE cluster **** in the dispatch dept.

    The way I approach my work is to assist and protect people. Not all law enforcement is bad.
    You're right; it isn't. However, not all LE is good. Some of it is downright evil, but it is armed with physical weapons and with the power of the State. As a culture, we need to take LE down off the pedestal on which it has been placed and realize that these are ordinary citizens who have been empowered under very narrowly defined circumstances to exercise specific powers that ordinary citizens cannot.

    The priorities of LE should be (1) protect the rights of all of the People, (2) protect the innocents from those who would unlawfully harm them, and lastly (3) go after the bad guys. Unfortunately, a lot of LE put so high an import on (3) that they run roughshod over (1) and fail to accomplish (2).

    It is better that officers do nothing than they succeed at (3) and fail at (1).


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  25. #25
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Okanogan Highland
    Posts
    2,332
    Quote Originally Posted by PotterMP View Post
    Thanks for the reference I hadn't see that before. From what I have read about it my opinion is it was a HUGE cluster **** in the dispatch dept.

    The way I approach my work is to assist and protect people. Not all law enforcement is bad.
    You know, I am not going to pin this on anyone in particular reason later....but as you are an officer, I would like you to evaluate the story below and comment...the reason...in this story"...she did not have her hearing aids in..." Look up Birk and Williams in Seattle...also stated by family Williams could not hear too well...at least there were witnesses with Williams...his family got $1.3M (wrongful death) and a statute of him in Seattles largest city park. Birk resigned, should have been sent to jail IMHO. anyway, common thread here is hearing problems..

    Next story is about a lady that called 911..tty...she was DEAF, completely absolutely deaf. Home invasion...police show up and she comes running out of the house...the police yell at her to stop...of course she did not stop, she could not hear them...or anything...no she was not armed..but that didn't stop them from tazing her, cuffing her and taking her to jail (while the thief got away clean) I have a good feeling City of Tacoma is going to pay a bunch for this one.

    I do not hear well myself...I'm SS+age and spent 8 years in the US Army (that is where the hearing problems come from) So my question is..who's responsibility is it to understand that someone has (may have) a hearing problem...how could the dispatcher miss that the woman was deaf? she was contacted via the deaf tty...I must assume the dispatcher told the responding officers the woman was deaf? Should they not have known that she could not hear them. But when they yell for her to "get on the ground", then taze and jail her for not doing so????

    So: who's fault? dispatch, officers, training or all of the above??? eh?

    I'll tell you what, I would be very unhappy if I had someone yelling at me to get on the ground for doing nothing illegal....and I guarantee, someone would pay as big a price as my lawyer could get out of them...especially if they shot me like Birk did Williams
    Last edited by hermannr; 10-27-2012 at 01:45 AM.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •