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Thread: Guy pulls gun in defense, ends up hitting bystander, wall in struggle for gun

  1. #1
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Guy pulls gun in defense, ends up hitting bystander, wall in struggle for gun

    This is a pretty good story of what not to do when pulling a gun in self-defense.

    http://johnsoncitypress.com/News/article.php?id=102641

    The release said officers responded to Twin Oaks Apartments, 330 Godsey Road, around midnight Saturday and found that Ashley Bishop had been shot.

    According to the parties involved, Bishop’s estranged boyfriend, Sabino Reyes, came to her apartment about 11:45 p.m. and began assaulting William Scott as he was leaving Bishop’s apartment. Scott was struck several times by Reyes’ fists during this confrontation, police said.

    Scott, who was legally carrying a concealed weapon, pulled it and pointed it at Reyes, police said. A struggle for the gun ensued, and during the struggle it discharged twice. One round was believed to have struck an outside brick wall of the building while the other went through Bishop’s hand and into her shoulder.
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    The first mistake he made was letting the guy get close enough to do that. There's time to talk, and there's time to fight. If you don't have space, make space. Martial arts teach this.
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    If this would have happened in 1936 and Hitler was the bystander then what??? Thinking out side the box.

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    Regular Member vt800c's Avatar
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    Question Wait a sec....

    This is from the link:

    Scott, who was legally carrying a concealed weapon, pulled it and pointed it at Reyes, police said. A struggle for the gun ensued, and during the struggle it discharged twice. ... Police said Reyes fled the scene and was located a short distance away by officers. After a traffic stop, he was brought to the station for questioning. Scott was located at the apartment. ...

    Scott was charged with felony reckless endangerment but police said the investigation was still open and additional charges may be filed.

    If the guy was legally carrying, And he was being assaulted, And decided to defend himself with a legally carried concealed firearm, WHY is he charged with "felony reckless endangerment " ?

    Please enlighten me.
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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vt800c View Post
    This is from the link:

    Scott, who was legally carrying a concealed weapon, pulled it and pointed it at Reyes, police said. A struggle for the gun ensued, and during the struggle it discharged twice. ... Police said Reyes fled the scene and was located a short distance away by officers. After a traffic stop, he was brought to the station for questioning. Scott was located at the apartment. ...

    Scott was charged with felony reckless endangerment but police said the investigation was still open and additional charges may be filed.

    If the guy was legally carrying, And he was being assaulted, And decided to defend himself with a legally carried concealed firearm, WHY is he charged with "felony reckless endangerment " ?

    Please enlighten me.
    Because he failed to hit his target and he isn't a cop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vt800c View Post
    This is from the link:

    Scott, who was legally carrying a concealed weapon, pulled it and pointed it at Reyes, police said. A struggle for the gun ensued, and during the struggle it discharged twice. ... Police said Reyes fled the scene and was located a short distance away by officers. After a traffic stop, he was brought to the station for questioning. Scott was located at the apartment. ...

    Scott was charged with felony reckless endangerment but police said the investigation was still open and additional charges may be filed.

    If the guy was legally carrying, And he was being assaulted, And decided to defend himself with a legally carried concealed firearm, WHY is he charged with "felony reckless endangerment " ?

    Please enlighten me.
    From what I've been taught, you fire a single round from your carry weapon, and you will most likely be going to jail, regardless of what happened. It will then be up to you and your lawyer to defend your actions.

    Unfortunately guns never solve a problem, they only change the problem.
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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    From what I've been taught, you fire a single round from your carry weapon, and you will most likely be going to jail, regardless of what happened. It will then be up to you and your lawyer to defend your actions.

    Unfortunately guns never solve a problem, they only change the problem.
    Scotty. Something to keep in mind....some of those "training classes" out there are a bit tainted by the biases and misconceptions of the "trainers". For instance, in Minnesota, there is a very apparent effort on the part of some of the trainers to discourage open carry. Fear mongering is one of the most common methods of discouragement. Similar to your post here. At the foundation of discussions here, I think you'll find responsible behavior trumps everything else. I also think a realistic viewpoint prevails, and one commonly held belief is that it is better to judged by 12 than carried by six. Most of us have considered the depth and gravity of our choices to carry defensive weapons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    Scotty. Something to keep in mind....some of those "training classes" out there are a bit tainted by the biases and misconceptions of the "trainers". For instance, in Minnesota, there is a very apparent effort on the part of some of the trainers to discourage open carry. Fear mongering is one of the most common methods of discouragement. Similar to your post here. At the foundation of discussions here, I think you'll find responsible behavior trumps everything else. I also think a realistic viewpoint prevails, and one commonly held belief is that it is better to judged by 12 than carried by six. Most of us have considered the depth and gravity of our choices to carry defensive weapons.
    I'm not saying you will surely go to jail, but don't be surprised at all if you do - that's all I'm saying. Cops and city prosecutors are not there to protect and serve. They are there to enforce the law and make arrests. You fire a shot, they will be looking for a reason to arrest you. Even an unwarranted pointing of a gun at someone in MN is a felony offense. In my state, there needs to be a reasonable threat of death or great bodily harm to use deadly force, otherwise you had better leave the area. In the home it's a little different - no threat of death or great bodily harm needs to exist, but there needs to be a crime in process - for instance your drunk neighbor accidently walks through your front door - you don't shoot him - but if a guy comes through your front door and demands all your money, you can shoot until the threat stops.
    Last edited by ScottE; 10-11-2012 at 04:18 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Zimmerman concealed carried with a privilege card, and what happened to him?
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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    I'm not saying you will surely go to jail, but don't be surprised at all if you do - that's all I'm saying. Cops and city prosecutors are not there to protect and serve. They are there to enforce the law and make arrests. You fire a shot, they will be looking for a reason to arrest you. Even an unwarranted pointing of a gun at someone in MN is a felony offense. In my state, there needs to be a reasonable threat of death or great bodily harm to use deadly force, otherwise you had better leave the area. In the home it's a little different - no threat of death or great bodily harm needs to exist, but there needs to be a crime in process - for instance your drunk neighbor accidently walks through your front door - you don't shoot him - but if a guy comes through your front door and demands all your money, you can shoot until the threat stops.
    Scotty. I appreciate your concern. However. You really need to let go of this idea that those who wear an open carried firearm are mentally deficient, irresponsible and lacking in knowledge. There just isn't anything to support that kind of propaganda. Set down the Kool Aid, and spend a little time looking around. Quite a few posters here that open carry. Now look around some more and figure out how many are "flashing their rod" to make a point, engaging in pre-emptive "spray 'n pray" techniques, shooting up the citizenry. Report what you find. Tally up the number of irresponsible life threatening and life ending encounters the members here engage in. You're gonna find little to support the hoplopobia your hoplophobic instructor planted. I mean, your instructor has to be the place you got it, since six weeks ago you didn't even own a gun, and you attribute all of your insights to the 5-8 hours of dynamic training you received three weeks ago.

    This forum has been here for years with a fairly respectable number of members. Nothing has transpired to support the nonsense your instructors have told you. Look around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Zimmerman concealed carried with a privilege card, and what happened to him?
    Carry method has nothing to do with Zimmerman's case. As a matter of fact, I believe he acted within the law.

    His biggest problem though that he persued the kid. He wasn't a reluctant participant. Had he been just walking along minding his own business and this kid attacked him, that would have been one thing. But Zimmeran was on record as someone that persued the kid. He shouldn't have done that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    Scotty. I appreciate your concern. However. You really need to let go of this idea that those who wear an open carried firearm are mentally deficient, irresponsible and lacking in knowledge. There just isn't anything to support that kind of propaganda. Set down the Kool Aid, and spend a little time looking around. Quite a few posters here that open carry. Now look around some more and figure out how many are "flashing their rod" to make a point, engaging in pre-emptive "spray 'n pray" techniques, shooting up the citizenry. Report what you find. Tally up the number of irresponsible life threatening and life ending encounters the members here engage in. You're gonna find little to support the hoplopobia your hoplophobic instructor planted. I mean, your instructor has to be the place you got it, since six weeks ago you didn't even own a gun, and you attribute all of your insights to the 5-8 hours of dynamic training you received three weeks ago.

    This forum has been here for years with a fairly respectable number of members. Nothing has transpired to support the nonsense your instructors have told you. Look around.
    What the hell are talking about? And why do you keep injecting carry method into the conversation? What I'm talking about applies to people of both methods. Quit taking it like it's an attack on carry method. And I'm not soley citing the words of instructors, these are how the laws work, at least in my state.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE
    Zimmerman's ... biggest problem though that he persued the kid. He wasn't a reluctant participant. Had he been just walking along minding his own business and this kid attacked him, that would have been one thing. But Zimmeran was on record as someone that persued the kid. He shouldn't have done that.
    Zimmerman was walking along, keeping an eye on Martin from a distance.
    Eventually stopped, turned around, walked away, back to his car. That's when the attack happened.
    Even if we characterize his walking along, keeping an eye on Martin & reporting to police, as a 'pursuit', he'd broken it off & started walking back to his car.
    And I have trouble seeing a neighborhood watch type "follow & report" action as something worthy of attempted murder (on the part of Martin).

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    The NYPD and it's defenders say it's "unreasonable" to expect bystanders to NOT get shot... if the shooter is a cop.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    What the hell are talking about? And why do you keep injecting carry method into the conversation? What I'm talking about applies to people of both methods. Quit taking it like it's an attack on carry method. And I'm not soley citing the words of instructors, these are how the laws work, at least in my state.
    "Why are you excited to OC?"

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1836284

    "As for cops and the public in general. You'll never have to worry about them at all if you CC. Again, I really question the motives of a lot of OC people."

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1836311

    "I just think for a number of people that carry, whether it be OC or even CC, the idea of carrying is a novelty, more so than a tool for personal defense. I see this more from OC people though. CC people have nothing to prove or show off since no one knows they are carrying."


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1836396


    "I CC for tactical reasons. I don't want the bad guy to know ahead of time to plan on me the victim having a gun - I imagine they'll come at me a lot harder if they know I'm carrying. I know that's what I would do. I also wouldn't want to be viewed by the bad guy as the one thing in his way while he's trying to commit a crime. I don't want a bad guy to know I'm carrying until he feels bullets in his chest.

    The general public doesn't know what I have in my pockets, so why do they need to see my carry weapon. And cops don't need to know either - it's none of their damn business, and I have no interest in making it their business via "guy with a gun" calls on me. I don't have time for dumb **** like that."



    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1836608

    "As for the John Wayne thing, not sure if I'd say that, but there is a noticable difference in mindset between the OC avocates and those that practice responsible CC."


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1836674

    That's "what the hell I'm talking about" Scotty. Read your own posts. You don't have a permit to carry yet, you have no experience to draw from, yet you see fit to ridicule a method that works for a lot of us. You seem to see this forum as a pulpit to preach the biases and prejudices your one-day trainer has. Maybe this activity will give you "clout" back at the home forums. You can point to where you harassed open carriers. Like part of a gang initiation. You spent 5-8 hours in a seminar geared to present the least knowledgeable/capable the minimum requirements to qualify for a state issued permit. Basically, if you can sit through the hours, retain enough information to complete the course, not demonstrate any real hazardous activity with a weapon AND your check clears the bank, you are considered highly trained and capable, above mere mortals, and especially those open carriers, the one's your instructor used as "bad examples".

    At this moment, most contributors on this forum have spent more time legally armed in public restrooms than you have anywhere in your entire lifetime. Just some perspective Scotty.
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    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    Carry method has nothing to do with Zimmerman's case. As a matter of fact, I believe he acted within the law.

    His biggest problem though that he persued the kid. He wasn't a reluctant participant. Had he been just walking along minding his own business and this kid attacked him, that would have been one thing. But Zimmeran was on record as someone that persued the kid. He shouldn't have done that.
    Observing and pursuing are not the same thing.

    Zimmeran made no attempt to have conversation or contact with him.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-12-2012 at 10:58 AM. Reason: added
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    Guy pulls gun in defense, ends up hitting bystander, wall in struggle for gun

    The story says Reyes was leaving after the initial assault. If that's true, then Scott was no longer defending himself and was now the aggressor.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Not to drag Zimmerman any farther into this thread about the OP. Zimmerman was CC and Martin did not know and apparently did not consider Zimmerman to be armed. The notion that criminals will see a potential victim and think "....hmmm, I wonder if that dude is packing?" can not be validated, and likely could never be validated.

    The only thing that you state about CCW that is empirically true is that a cop will almost never hassle you simply because you are armed.

    Police said Reyes fled the scene (apparently after the shot was fired) and was located a short distance away by officers.
    Blue added by me.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Not to drag Zimmerman any farther into this thread about the OP. Zimmerman was CC and Martin did not know and apparently did not consider Zimmerman to be armed. The notion that criminals will see a potential victim and think "....hmmm, I wonder if that dude is packing?" can not be validated, and likely could never be validated.

    ScottE, The only thing that you state about CCW that is empirically true is that a cop will almost never hassle you simply because you are armed.

    Blue added by me.
    Ooops.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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