open carry bad encounter leo

azcdlfred said:

It depends on your perspecitve and what specific laws you are looking at.

Rather that get into "my state is better than your state," just recognize that until any law-abiding person can carry any time and in any place they have a right to be, without any "but only if.." modifiers, the guns laws in all states are too restrictive.

That's why I use the term "restore" the right to bear arms in Arizona. We (AzCDL) are not adding any new rights. We're restoring the ones taken from us.

Fred

Click to expand...

we reveal (?) in the constitutional carry that the state of AZ enjoys. most states do point at you and the other states that have this, and wished they had it. every state has benefits that other states wished they had (including AZ).

i would say though, know this you could loose any rights that you have restored in a heart beat if you are not diligent. thinking that no one in government is against you is a very dangerous stance to take.

carry and carry often, and always have a recorder

papa bear said:

i would say though, know this you could loose any rights that you have restored in a heart beat if you are not diligent. thinking that no one in government is against you is a very dangerous stance to take.

Click to expand...

All it takes is for one election to swing the Legislature to the "dark side" where anti-rights bills will be the norm.

That's why it is important to get invovled. And getting involved does not mean cranking out "oughta, wanna, shoulda" messages on Internet forums.

Fred

Aren't encounters with LEO what OC people hope for, one of the reasons they do it. That's what I'm told all the time. Camera in hand and such.

ScottE said:

Aren't encounters with LEO what OC people hope for, one of the reasons they do it. That's what I'm told all the time. Camera in hand and such.

Click to expand...

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't open carry to get into any encounters with anyone, LEO or otherwise, and don't carry any recording devices and have no intention of starting.

A Right not exercised is a Right lost. The more we all open carry, the more people get used to seeing firearms being carried, the less it is seen as a bad thing.

When we have the right to open carry but hide it like we're doing something wrong, we are saying we agree with the anti-rights folks that guns are eeeeevvvviiiiiilllll and should not be seen in public.

And if we use the word "concealed" we are letting our enemies define our behavior. Concealed implies something nefarious. There are times I carry discreetly, but I never carry "concealed."

I have been carrying a firearm for almost 20 years and for the 10 years I've been living in Arizona, I carry openly unless the law requires me to be discreet. I have never had a bad LEO interaction. And, no I am not a retired LEO, nor have I ever worked as one.

Fred

'Game preserves'? The only ones I know of are private shooting preserves. as for the rest of it... why would I want to? I have no need. I dunno about Utah... have no reason to go there. That 'unloaded on a public street' is much more rrestrictive and potentially dangerous than anything we can't do here. Besides... we don't need 'permission' to do it. For some people, the glass is always half full.

ScottE... 'You a troll or something?

ScottE said:

Aren't encounters with LEO what OC people hope for, one of the reasons they do it. That's what I'm told all the time. Camera in hand and such.

Click to expand...

I've been OC'ing for 20 years. I've never had an encounter except for traffic stops while armed. Please tell me what I am doing wrong.

Stop getting all your information from YouTube.

azcdlfred said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't open carry to get into any encounters with anyone, LEO or otherwise, and don't carry any recording devices and have no intention of starting.

A Right not exercised is a Right lost. The more we all open carry, the more people get used to seeing firearms being carried, the less it is seen as a bad thing.

When we have the right to open carry but hide it like we're doing something wrong, we are saying we agree with the anti-rights folks that guns are eeeeevvvviiiiiilllll and should not be seen in public.

And if we use the word "concealed" we are letting our enemies define our behavior. Concealed implies something nefarious. There are times I carry discreetly, but I never carry "concealed."

I have been carrying a firearm for almost 20 years and for the 10 years I've been living in Arizona, I carry openly unless the law requires me to be discreet. I have never had a bad LEO interaction. And, no I am not a retired LEO, nor have I ever worked as one.

Fred

Click to expand...

I'm not against open carry. But I know it got laws in CA changed so now the people there can't OC. I believe more tact should be used to get the public onboard. I CC for tactical reasons, not because I feel like I'm doing something wrong.

MAC702 said:

I've been OC'ing for 20 years. I've never had an encounter except for traffic stops while armed. Please tell me what I am doing wrong.

Click to expand...

I have no idea. You'd have to ask one of the OC activist types on here.

MAC702 said:

Stop getting all your information from YouTube.

Click to expand...

I don't. I also get it from this forum.

ScottE said:

I'm not against open carry. But I know it got laws in CA changed so now the people there can't OC.....

Click to expand...

So if they hadn't been doing what was legal, it would still be legal so they could still not being doing a legal activity. Got it.

MAC702 said:

So if they hadn't been doing what was legal, it would still be legal so they could still not being doing a legal activity. Got it.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. We get the government we deserve.

Again, I'm not against open carry in regards to exercising one's rights, but if one wants to educate the public on OC, it should be done in a more tactful manner. The mall ninjas out there that OC to capture LEO encounters, get attention from the public, or think they are scaring off bad guys, only hurt the cause, ie, California...

ScottE said:

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. We get the government we deserve.

Again, I'm not against open carry in regards to exercising one's rights, but if one wants to educate the public on OC, it should be done in a more tactful manner. The mall ninjas out there that OC to capture LEO encounters, get attention from the public, or think they are scaring off bad guys, only hurt the cause, ie, California...

Click to expand...

That's funny, I thought it was the politicians who were responsible for passing laws that control and limit the population's legal rights. But please, tell us more about how the people exercising a right hurt the 'cause' of their rights.

ScottE said:

I'm not against open carry. But I know it got laws in CA changed so now the people there can't OC. I believe more tact should be used to get the public onboard. I CC for tactical reasons, not because I feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Click to expand...

SCOTTE, the reason people in CA got their right restricted. was not because of OC but the lack of it, and not being political in getting more pro-gun elected to government. Too much bureaucratic running the government also.
there is no "tactical" advantage to CC, actually just the opposite. if you are hiding your firearm it is because you don't want sheeple to know you are armed

BTW "deserve" a communist word. probably be best to say "we get the government we pick"

azcdlfred said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't open carry to get into any encounters with anyone, LEO or otherwise, and don't carry any recording devices and have no intention of starting.

A Right not exercised is a Right lost. The more we all open carry, the more people get used to seeing firearms being carried, the less it is seen as a bad thing.

When we have the right to open carry but hide it like we're doing something wrong, we are saying we agree with the anti-rights folks that guns are eeeeevvvviiiiiilllll and should not be seen in public.

And if we use the word "concealed" we are letting our enemies define our behavior. Concealed implies something nefarious. There are times I carry discreetly, but I never carry "concealed."

I have been carrying a firearm for almost 20 years and for the 10 years I've been living in Arizona, I carry openly unless the law requires me to be discreet. I have never had a bad LEO interaction. And, no I am not a retired LEO, nor have I ever worked as one.

Fred

Click to expand...

hey FRED. except for the not carrying some recorder that was a good post. i have been carrying for 32 years even before CC was allowed in my states. i have also never had a bad encounter with a LEO, but that is no reason not to expect it. i am an old boy scout an believe in being prepared

To the OP, I would say know your laws like the back of your hand. The best way is to take a local Handgun class. A good class will go over all the ins and outs of the laws in your state, just not on carry laws, but the use of lethal force on the street and in your home, along with responsible carry tactics as well. Follow their instruction and you'll most likely never have LEO mess with you again.

ScottE said:

Aren't encounters with LEO what OC people hope for, one of the reasons they do it. That's what I'm told all the time. Camera in hand and such.

Click to expand...

the only reason i open carry is because im not 21 yet in AZ you have to be 21 to cc until then the only way you can carry is oc

ScottE said:

Aren't encounters with LEO what OC people hope for, one of the reasons they do it. That's what I'm told all the time. Camera in hand and such.

Click to expand...

No! For most it is the complete opposite. The last thing we want is to tie up police resources that are needed elsewhere. We carry openly for our own protection above all else. As with anything that humans are involved with the rule of 10's apply. There are in any workplace, outing, etc.. 1 in 10 people who may try to abuse the rules. Police are no different, and for that matter some activists OCers, may cross the line of good sense at times. I can see both sides of the argument. "if I am following the law why do I need to record?" or "I am willing to bet my freedom that I won't run into that one bad apple in uniform today?" In the end it is a personal choice. In the past some OCers have covertly recorded interactions and those records kept them out of court because they clearly showed no wrong doing on the citizens part versus what went into a report by a officer with a agenda. I am newer in Arizona, under a year here but I can tell you that the Police here are far more professional than the ones in the mid-west where I came from.

Using your logic above aren't gun fights in mini-marts what CCer's hope for?
We know that is not the case for the 99.99% of CCers so why would you think ALL OCers are out for police trouble? More like .001% if I had to "guess" at a number.

rpyne said:

Let's see....

Any business that sells alcohol
Public and private schools
Polling places
Game preserves
Public events
Municipal restrictions
Any "posted" building

Click to expand...

Where did you come up with that list? It's ridiculously dated at best.

Places that serve alcohol can prohibit guns if they want to, but there's no blanket rule against carrying there.
"Game Preserves" don't exist in AZ AFAIK. I think there used to be a restriction regarding wildlife preserves that was removed a while ago.
There's no blanket restriction on "Public Events", though like other places the organizers might be able to choose to restrict carry.
There are zero "Municipal restrictions". We have a good preemption law. We even have preemption on knives.
As far as posted buildings, I respect the rights of property owners and so should you. When it comes to public buildings that are posted, they at least have to provide secure onsite storage.

National Park signs still state 'No Firearms' waaaaay out in the desert where I ride. I suppose the park service doesn't have the money to replace them all. Very few people see them... 'cause the only way to get there is horseback or on foot. I've never seen anyone on foot that far into the desert. I've always carried in the desert (before the act to comply with state law).. I have to. I have to go thru or skirt the national park to go anywhere from home. Everybody who lives here does.

It's well understood there's no discharging firearms in the Park... unless in self defense. Traveling in the desert unarmed is risky. I'm firmly of the opinion that anyone claiming to be harassed by LEO's for open carrying in AZ (and for no other reason) is making it up.


In fact... I've begun to suspect many of these tales as complete fabrications by people who don't carry (much less own) sidearms at all.

JesseL said:

Where did you come up with that list? It's ridiculously dated at best.

Places that serve alcohol can prohibit guns if they want to, but there's no blanket rule against carrying there.

Click to expand...

A.R.S. 4-229 and 4-244: All three conditions must be met to carry 1) You have a CCW permit and the gun is concealed, 2) You do not consume alcohol and 3) There is not a sign prohibiting firearms posted near the liquor license.

"Game Preserves" don't exist in AZ AFAIK. I think there used to be a restriction regarding wildlife preserves that was removed a while ago.

Click to expand...

A.R.S. 17-305

There are zero "Municipal restrictions". We have a good preemption law. We even have preemption on knives.

Click to expand...

City of Tucson v. Rineer, 971 P.2d 207 (Ariz. App. 2d Div. 1998) "The City ordinance which prohibited possession of firearms within city parks was neither preempted by nor in conflict with state firearms statutes."

rpyne said:

....

City of Tucson v. Rineer, 971 P.2d 207 (Ariz. App. 2d Div. 1998) "The City ordinance which prohibited possession of firearms within city parks was neither preempted by nor in conflict with state firearms statutes."

Click to expand...

This maybe where the outdated reference came from?

rpyne said:

A.R.S. 4-229 and 4-244: All three conditions must be met to carry 1) You have a CCW permit and the gun is concealed, 2) You do not consume alcohol and 3) There is not a sign prohibiting firearms posted near the liquor license.

Click to expand...

You are correct on this.

rpyne said:

A.R.S. 17-305

Click to expand...

This section (at least as it pertains to carrying a firearm in a game refuge) was repealed in 2011 by House Bill 2006, AzCDL requested legislation sponsored by Rep. Jack Harper.

rpyne said:

City of Tucson v. Rineer, 971 P.2d 207 (Ariz. App. 2d Div. 1998) "The City ordinance which prohibited possession of firearms within city parks was neither preempted by nor in conflict with state firearms statutes."

Click to expand...

This decision has effectively been overridden by several subsequent pieces of legislation that have modified ARS 13-3108, our preemption law, all requested by AzCDL and NRA over a period of several years since it was handed down by the Pima county based Court of Appeals (our appellate branch in AZ is split into Pima-centric and Maricopa-centric divisions, they are the two major population centers). You can check www.azcdl.org for more details, it's really too much to go into in one message.

In a nutshell, that decision no longer carries any weight in AZ.