FPS Russia on CC vs. OC

Shadow Bear said:

I think you vastly overestimate the reaction of the general population regarding OC. The actions of a few 'knee jerk' people manage to make the evening news.

Yes, there are a few attention seekers that try to precipitate contentious interactions with law enforcement, but the vast majority go about our daily business while OCing, with absolutely ZERO drama.

You are likely to find people more sympathetic to your point of view on a forum that is not dedicated to using open carry as a tool to educate the average person, and / or as a tactical choice.

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Finally someone here that can have an adult conversation - I really appreciate that.

It's that using "open carry as a tool to educate the average person" that I have a problem with. That's really sums it up. And I think that is the difference between those that OC and those that CC. One focuses more on education, political and social statements, while the other only focuses on personal defense. I don't have much training yet, but what training I've had, I was taught that my carry weapon is nothing more than a tool for personal defense, nothing more. And I couldn't see myself attending any training that has using your carry weapon as a tool to educate the public as part of its class curriculum.

ScottE said:

Finally someone here that can have an adult conversation - I really appreciate that.

It's that using "open carry as a tool to educate the average person" that I have a problem with. That's really sums it up. And I think that is the difference between those that OC and those that CC. One focuses more on education, political and social statements, while the other only focuses on personal defense. I don't have much training yet, but what training I've had, I was taught that my carry weapon is nothing more than a tool for personal defense, nothing more. And I couldn't see myself attending any training that has using your carry weapon as a tool to educate the public as part of its class curriculum.

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As far as your comments on CC having more of a focus on self defense than OC, I would respond that many of us, in addition to the public education aspect of OC, also believe [and have seen evidence of] the fact that in many cases an openly carried firearm can prevent defensive situations from even occurring. CC does not provide this preventative measure. And in the event that a defensive situation does occur anyway, I find that I have a much faster draw and can put accurate shots downrange much quicker from an OC rig than my CC rig.

ScottE said:

Finally someone here that can have an adult conversation - I really appreciate that.

It's that using "open carry as a tool to educate the average person" that I have a problem with. That's really sums it up. And I think that is the difference between those that OC and those that CC. One focuses more on education, political and social statements, while the other only focuses on personal defense. I don't have much training yet, but what training I've had, I was taught that my carry weapon is nothing more than a tool for personal defense, nothing more. And I couldn't see myself attending any training that has using your carry weapon as a tool to educate the public as part of its class curriculum.

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Interesting premise.

For me, I don't like to have my shirt un-tucked and I don't like to un-tuck my shirt until the end of the day. I CC only when the weather dictates that a outer garment is required due to lower temperatures, below ~50 degrees F.

So, out of necessity I must OC to meet my eccentric "shirt must be tucked in requirement," and I only CC when it gets cold. I am told that my pistol works just as well when OC'd or CC'd.

With this being said, this is a OC centric forum and getting your undies in a bunch and then responding in a manner not consistent with the rules of the house when folks around here challenge your premise(s) will get you deleted and/or placed on member ignore lists in fairly short order.

While getting banned for unruly behavior is likely more difficult than getting excommunicated from the Holy Roman Catholic Church it has occurred and it is safe to say that it will happen again. Our forum benefactors are benevolent dictators....this is good.

Just a friendly reminder that this is private property and we all are subject to the rules of the "head master(s)" and their surrogates.

HKcarrier said:

That gun looks like garbage

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Not only that, those 2-D models don't shoot worth a damn.

ScottE said:

I think California would disagree with you. OC may be fine in some rural areas. But in large urban areas, you're bringing trouble onto yourself, not only with the general public and LEOs, but one could argue from a tactical stand point as well. Gun carry is not popular enough yet to push OC on to people. Educating the public on gun carry is a long slow process. The OC people in California set that state back. Others could follow. It's a large segment of the OC people that are a hindrance to gun rights. This is something that needs to be eased into. But I know I'm not going to be able to convince most OC people of that.

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Have you ever tried OC? I recommend you try it on at least 5 different occasions. Maybe more. Attend an OC event. IF after that you still dislike it, so bit it. At least you made an educated decision and gave it a fair chance.

I think the more people carrying the better.

I think OC shows people it's ok to carry. It starts conversations about the confusing gun laws. IT shows that someone is so educated about the laws that they're bold enough to carry so that everyone can see it. They have nothing to hide. They know they are acting within the law.

There are other positives for OC to me besides educating people and showing that it's perfectly normal for a normal person to go about their normal every day activities while being responsible for their own personal safety.

I like the flexibility that is given by using a combo of OC and CC.... you use all the tools in your box.

I guess I fall under the category of either selfish or obnoxious depending on how I feel at a given time, but it all has to do with comfort for me. There are times when I, having a CPL, feel more comfortable CCing, there are other times when I OC. I think knocking someone because they personally think that OC is obnoxious, though a different term might be better, is not fair I also think calling someone who CCs selfish is equally unfair.

HKcarrier said:

Have you ever tried OC? I recommend you try it on at least 5 different occasions. Maybe more. Attend an OC event. IF after that you still dislike it, so bit it. At least you made an educated decision and gave it a fair chance.

I think the more people carrying the better.

I think OC shows people it's ok to carry. It starts conversations about the confusing gun laws. IT shows that someone is so educated about the laws that they're bold enough to carry so that everyone can see it. They have nothing to hide. They know they are acting within the law.

There are other positives for OC to me besides educating people and showing that it's perfectly normal for a normal person to go about their normal every day activities while being responsible for their own personal safety.

I like the flexibility that is given by using a combo of OC and CC.... you use all the tools in your box.

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No, I have never OC'ed. I went to classes before ever doing anything with a gun, and was taught the pros and cons of OC and CC. I opted for CC based on that information and of course other info out there, along with the horror stories I see from people on the internet that do OC. The instructors and people in the carry community that I respect for their knowledge in gun tactics and skills all CC. I see no advantages OC has over CC. And I see negative aspects to OC that I don't see with CC.

Can I ask, what training have to had that you were taught to OC? I ask because I've never heard of a class that teaches OC is tactically better.

Again, I carry for self defense purpose only. I don't carry to educate people. I don't carry to draw attention to myself. As a matter of fact I don't want to draw attention to my gun. If someone notices I have a gun, I messed up. And education should be left to professional trainers in my opinion. A lack of training is why we see so many people on this forum and others asking questions about law, LEO encounters, etc. If anything I guess it keeps the forum active.

btw - thanks for the civil conversation. Oh, and I like your sig.

Raggs said:

I guess I fall under the category of either selfish or obnoxious depending on how I feel at a given time, but it all has to do with comfort for me. There are times when I, having a CPL, feel more comfortable CCing, there are other times when I OC. I think knocking someone because they personally think that OC is obnoxious, though a different term might be better, is not fair I also think calling someone who CCs selfish is equally unfair.

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I don't think comfort should determine your carry tactics. That's a mindset/training issue. I would recommend that you try a new holster. There are a number of very comfortable iwb holsters out there. I have a new White Hat Max Tuck iwb holster arriving in the mail today - check them out at www.whitehatholsters.com

ScottE said:

No, I have never OC'ed. I went to classes before ever doing anything with a gun, and was taught the pros and cons of OC and CC. I opted for CC based on that information and of course other info out there, along with the horror stories I see from people on the internet that do OC. The instructors and people in the carry community that I respect for their knowledge in gun tactics and skills all CC. I see no advantages OC has over CC. And I see negative aspects to OC that I don't see with CC.

Can I ask, what training have to had that you were taught to OC? I ask because I've never heard of a class that teaches OC is tactically better.

Again, I carry for self defense purpose only. I don't carry to educate people. I don't carry to draw attention to myself. As a matter of fact I don't want to draw attention to my gun. If someone notices I have a gun, I messed up. And education should be left to professional trainers in my opinion. A lack of training is why we see so many people on this forum and others asking questions about law, LEO encounters, etc. If anything I guess it keeps the forum active.

btw - thanks for the civil conversation. Oh, and I like your sig.

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Unlike Minnesota, our Michigan Constitution grants the RTKBA. Folks here have a tendency to cherish such a Right and not become the brainwashed, sock-puppets by those who make a living at doing so. Furthermore, your so-called "professional trainers" are likely against any state that is, or may soon to be, ConCarry. You see, in those ConCarry states such as Arizona, Alaska, Wyoming, & Vermont, training and licenses/permits to OC and/or CC is not required, both on foot or in a vehicle. Hence: No brainwashing involved or money to be made.

I have not seen it, yet, but I may have missed it, so I'll apologize for repeating it-

One of the other reasons for OC, at least in Michigan, is our licensing requirements. Many folks can't get a license for a number of reasons, such as age (they are between 18 and 21), cost (the state charges over $100, and requires a class that costs between $50 and $150) or the individual ran afoul of our rather lengthy list of disqualifying acts.

I know of one person, who I consider an upstanding individual worthy of my personal trust, who got disqualified for several years for simply sitting in his vehicle waiting for a friend to meet him for coffee. He was not yet 21, and couldn't get a CPL, yet. He got to the coffee shop, removed his sidearm from the trunk, and went inside. His friend was not yet there, so he decided to sit in the car, & wait. Local PD popped him for carrying a concealed weapon. Silly, but true- any weapon within the confines of a vehicle is 'concealed' in Michigan. Other states are wiser on this. Now he's 21, but barred from a CPL due to this incident.

Should he be denied the right of self defense because he cannot legally conceal? His only option is OC.

Michigan is in a crisis; don't believe the unemployment figures the government reports- they don't count the under employed, working at Walmart since their job went south or east. They don't count the number of people who have simply 'given up', after looking for years for a job in their field.

For those who cannot fork out the greenbacks for a government permission slip, should we deny them the right of self defense?

Michigan has a bit of legal fiction called 'pistol free zones'. The theory is that by banning CONCEALED firearms in certain areas, they will become safer. In reality, they have become the modern day killing fields, as violent persons with evil intent know they can work their evil with no fear of opposition from a legally armed citizen. Through an odd interaction between two different laws, you may legally OC in those areas (with some exceptions). So, I can make a choice- disarm, or open carry, in those areas. Sure, you can avoid most, but not all, and not always.

Should someone be denied the right of self defense because an ignorant, albeit perhaps well meaning, politician did not take a common sense stance against this bit of legal fiction, which only gives the illusion of safety? BTW, we call them 'criminal empowerment zones)

SpringerXDacp said:

Unlike Minnesota, our Michigan Constitution grants the RTKBA. Folks here have a tendency to cherish such a Right and not become the brainwashed, sock-puppets by those who make a living at doing so. Furthermore, your so-called "professional trainers" are likely against any state that is, or may soon to be, ConCarry. You see, in those ConCarry states such as Arizona, Alaska, Wyoming, & Vermont, training and licenses/permits to OC and/or CC is not required, both on foot or in a vehicle. Hence: No brainwashing involved or money to be made.

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No offense, but I see a lot of people on here that could use training. I don't believe it should be forced by government, since it is a right bear and keep arms. But I think one should be responsible and at a minimum get some basic handgun handling and safefty classes and a class for that talks about carry laws and tactics.

There are very few people in this county with carry permits, even fewer that actually carry, and even fewer yet that have any training to actually defend themselves in a high stress lethal confrontation.

Since you considering training to be brainwashing, is it safe to assume you have none? Even if you've been carrying for a number of years, I definitely recommend some basic training at least - some of it you may already know, but there is always something to learn.

ScottE said:

I don't think comfort should determine your carry tactics. That's a mindset/training issue. I would recommend that you try a new holster. There are a number of very comfortable iwb holsters out there. I have a new White Hat Max Tuck iwb holster arriving in the mail today - check them out at www.whitehatholsters.com

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Actually most of the time 'comfort' dictates a CC for me. however there are times when i am wearing a tshirt that is tight and prints wonderfully so I go with open carry. Or there could be times when where I want to go is only legal for me if I open carry. My personal favorite form of carrying is concealed in a shoulder holster, super comfort, but not appropriate at all times.

In some cases, OC is required by law. Better stated, it is your only legal carry option. I personally, can't CC, lost my CPL, so OC is the option I have. To be honest, I detest CC, tried it a few times and found it to be a deterrent to myself tactically, socially, and politically.

CC is exactly what the antis want, out of sight, out of mind. Meanwhile, they get a free run about society spreading their propaganda unopposed. They speak loudly in media, TV, movies and music about how guns are bad, and how evil gun owners are, and the gun community sits mute with their rights in their pockets and a little club card permission slip in their wallets. Society never gets to see what guns really are, who gun owners really are, how many of us are out there, and that nothing bad happens. They dont see a person walking through a park with a gun, someone helping someone change a tire, with a gun, or someone having a burger with their kids, again, with a gun, and thats exactly how they want it.

ScottE said:

No offense, but I see a lot of people on here that could use training. I don't believe it should be forced by government, since it is a right bear and keep arms. But I think one should be responsible and at a minimum get some basic handgun handling and safefty classes and a class for that talks about carry laws and tactics.

There are very few people in this county with carry permits, even fewer that actually carry, and even fewer yet that have any training to actually defend themselves in a high stress lethal confrontation.

Since you considering training to be brainwashing, is it safe to assume you have none? Even if you've been carrying for a number of years, I definitely recommend some basic training at least - some of it you may already know, but there is always something to learn.

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While training is a good idea... it does not have to be formal. I read shooting reports and reenact them at the range to learn what could be done better. I setup scenarios and run them many different ways to test my abilities. Finally the most important part is to run mental scenarios all the time. Any time I enter a new location I spend a few minutes scoping out the attack points and defensible positions. I position myself so I am protected from blind side attacks. I have sat in on enough training classes over the years to know more than half are worse than no class at all.

stainless1911 said:

In some cases, OC is required by law. Better stated, it is your only legal carry option. I personally, can't CC, lost my CPL, so OC is the option I have. To be honest, I detest CC, tried it a few times and found it to be a deterrent to myself tactically, socially, and politically.

CC is exactly what the antis want, out of sight, out of mind. Meanwhile, they get a free run about society spreading their propaganda unopposed. They speak loudly in media, TV, movies and music about how guns are bad, and how evil gun owners are, and the gun community sits mute with their rights in their pockets and a little club card permission slip in their wallets. Society never gets to see what guns really are, who gun owners really are, how many of us are out there, and that nothing bad happens. They dont see a person walking through a park with a gun, someone helping someone change a tire, with a gun, or someone having a burger with their kids, again, with a gun, and thats exactly how they want it.

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If you live in a state that doesn't allow CC, then by all means OC. OC is better than not carrying at all.

As for educating society. That's going to be a long process. The problem is many OC people give carrying a bad name. Look at all the camera carrying OC people, not just on youtube, but on this forum as well. They are out there looking for encounters. Sorry, I don't want these people representing me. There is a right way and a wrong way to promote gun carry. And I just think that walking around like we're in the wild west is too much of a culture shock for your average soccer mom, and all it does it make things worse. I'm not going to debate back and forth on this, but just wanted to explain myself.

ScottE said:

If you live in a state that doesn't allow CC, then by all means OC. OC is better than not carrying at all.

As for educating society. That's going to be a long process. The problem is many OC people give carrying a bad name. Look at all the camera carrying OC people, not just on youtube, but on this forum as well. They are out there looking for encounters. Sorry, I don't want these people representing me. There is a right way and a wrong way to promote gun carry. And I just think that walking around like we're in the wild west is too much of a culture shock for your average soccer mom, and all it does it make things worse. I'm not going to debate back and forth on this, but just wanted to explain myself.

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The wild west was the wild west because the law abiding were forbidden from carrying guns, so I guess I miss your analogy. And, I agree with you in part, about people looking for a fight with a video camera, but they are a tiny minority of even the OC crowd.

I have OCed a lot, I can speak from experience here. Your everyday Joe, or soccer mom, never even notices. Of those who do, most are neutral, followed by gun owners who either don't carry, or just CC. The rest either don't like it, because they don't approve of carry in any form, or are like you, who do carry, but don't yet understand OC or the people who do it. The last group of people, are those who support OC, but don't do it. I have had many people thank me, a few Hi- Fives, some smiles, or an approving nod here or there, a thumbs up, or similar. I can tell you that there are far more of those looks of approval, than looks of disapproval.

More disinformation provided by the same poster/user

ScottE said:

If you live in a state that doesn't allow [strike]CC[/strike] OC, then by all means [strike]OC[/strike] CC. [strike]OC[/strike] CC is better than not carrying at all.

As for educating society. That's going to be a long process. The problem is many OC people give carrying a bad name. Look at all the camera carrying OC people, not just on youtube, but on this forum as well. They are out there looking for encounters. Sorry, I don't want these people representing me. There is a right way and a wrong way to promote gun carry. And I just think that walking around like we're in the wild west is too much of a culture shock for your average soccer mom, and all it does it make things worse. I'm not going to debate back and forth on this, but just wanted to explain myself.

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Fixed the 1st paragraph for you.

Education is an on going thing. A vast majority of OCers are good and honest people and contribute accordingly. Those that carry recorders are not looking for encounters, but carry the extra equipment for the obvious benefit of protection.

Not to worry, they do not represent you. They are the ones trying to do good and further the cause......unlike what you seem to be attempting to do.

BTW - the wild west wasn't so wild except in the dime novels of yesterday and in Hollywood today.

You haven't begun to explain yourself yet. Don't think there is a satisfactory explanation for your conduct on OCDO.

ScottE said:

No, I have never OC'ed. I went to classes before ever doing anything with a gun, and was taught the pros and cons of OC and CC. I opted for CC based on that information and of course other info out there, along with the horror stories I see from people on the internet that do OC. The instructors and people in the carry community that I respect for their knowledge in gun tactics and skills all CC. I see no advantages OC has over CC. And I see negative aspects to OC that I don't see with CC.

I"ve handled guns and shot my whole life. I will admit I have not had formal training beyond a CPL course. I am planning on taking several courses this up coming spring. I had wanted to get some in this summer but the finances just weren't there. I do, shoot at least monthly and try to mix it up so I"m not just shooting weaver. Try to move around. Practice angles and shooting from cover. Just practice in general even while not on the range... reading, dry firing...etc.

What are these "horror stories" you refer to? I have not yet been accosted by the cops... I must be doing it wrong. I havne't been popped in the head by a bank robber yet either!!! Truth is, people rarely notice. The people that WOULD notice would be someone who was casing you for a mugging or something....watching you closely.... general folks hardly EVER notice. When they do, I have yet to have a negative encounter.



Can I ask, what training have to had that you were taught to OC? I ask because I've never heard of a class that teaches OC is tactically better.

Again, I carry for self defense purpose only. I don't carry to educate people. I don't carry to draw attention to myself. As a matter of fact I don't want to draw attention to my gun. If someone notices I have a gun, I messed up. And education should be left to professional trainers in my opinion. A lack of training is why we see so many people on this forum and others asking questions about law, LEO encounters, etc. If anything I guess it keeps the forum active.

I started OCing because I did not yet have a CPL. I also didn't want to get a CPL or a "permission slip" from the GOVT. I didn't want to have to pay for a right. I didn't want to have to put in my bribe so I could carry and protect myself and my family. I eventually realized that it's going to be a WHOOOOOLE lot easier to just break down and get it, so I did. I researched and studied firearms laws for around 6 months before I initially OCed. If you think that's not enough "training" then I don't know what is. I easily had over 100 hours (probably more like 200+) of research into laws, carry tactics, firearms handling, scenarios, etc....

btw - thanks for the civil conversation. Oh, and I like your sig.

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Glad you like it... I thought it was a good thing to keep in mind... and as far as the civil convo, thanks to you too.. please have an open mind and consider what our objectives are even if you decide OC isn't for you... we're still all on the same team here.

RESPONDING ABOVE IN RED...

stainless1911 said:

CC is exactly what the antis want, out of sight, out of mind. Meanwhile, they get a free run about society spreading their propaganda unopposed. They speak loudly in media, TV, movies and music about how guns are bad, and how evil gun owners are, and the gun community sits mute with their rights in their pockets and a little club card permission slip in their wallets. Society never gets to see what guns really are, who gun owners really are, how many of us are out there, and that nothing bad happens. They dont see a person walking through a park with a gun, someone helping someone change a tire, with a gun, or someone having a burger with their kids, again, with a gun, and thats exactly how they want it.

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DAMMIT!!! I hate when Stainless couldn't be more on the money and I"m forced to completely agree with him.


ScottE, it's not so much that people are wanting to "educate the public".... we're not frickin school teachers.... but we want to bring firearms rights out of the closet. We want people to see it. We want people to see it's ok. We don't want people to see our firearms to think we're badasses. We don't want people to think we're tough guys. We just want people to see that it's ok to carry. It's ok for people to take personal responsibility for their safety. It's nothing to be afraid of. Normal people carry, not just Tackleberry and Hill Billy Bob....

So many mis-truths are perpetrated by the media and by TV/Movies and that stuff needs to be dispelled. That stuff needs addressing. How else can you address it but to carry and do anything you can to get other people to carry. To start a conversation... to engage people... to further the movement....


Carry on...

stainless1911 said:

--snip--
CC is exactly what the antis want, out of sight, out of mind. Meanwhile, they get a free run about society spreading their propaganda unopposed. They speak loudly in media, TV, movies and music about how guns are bad, and how evil gun owners are, and the gun community sits mute with their rights in their pockets and a little club card permission slip in their wallets. Society never gets to see what guns really are, who gun owners really are, how many of us are out there, and that nothing bad happens. They dont see a person walking through a park with a gun, someone helping someone change a tire, with a gun, or someone having a burger with their kids, again, with a gun, and thats exactly how they want it.

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Grapeshot said:

Ladies and gentleman, announcing our winner in the Quote of the Month contest which will automatically be entered in the Quote of the Year competition. Decisions of the judges will be final.

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....although I"m not sure how many tires he's going to change "with a gun"...