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Thread: Open Carry @ Gilbert Arizona Workforce Connection

  1. #1
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Open Carry @ Gilbert Arizona Workforce Connection

    So I lost my job yesterday and I went to Maricopa Workforce Connections in Gilbert this morning and I got all excited because I thought they had a bar based on the sign.

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    Turns out they don't.

    I asked the armed security guard what he would do if I was carrying and he said he would take my gun. I said "no you wouldn't. Do you have secure storage?" He said they don't. I then asked if they served alcohol and he said no. I explained the sign was in error and he said I should bring it up to the director.

    After I went outside I took a picture and he practically ran out to question me, then said he would bring it up to the director. Other than his momentary panic he was professional and polite, however, I wasn't carrying.

    I think we need to organize an open carry even at that location this week. I never thought I'd say that in AZ.

    ETA You are welcome to use their services even if you are employed so you can still have a legitimate reason to be there while carrying. I never said carrying at a place where a prospective employer might be is a good idea.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-07-2012 at 11:45 PM. Reason: Changed title at request of OP

  2. #2
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Change title of thread

    Ughh, I want to change the title of this thread to "Open Carry @ Gilbert Arizona Workforce Connection".

    Can that be done?


    Moderator comment:

    Yep - did it for you. Sorry I didn't catch it earlier.

    Just for the record, original title was "Illegal Sign Arizona Workforce Connection."
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-07-2012 at 11:44 PM.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Is the Arizona Workforce Connection "operated" by a state or local government agency or is it some cooperative project with the private sector? I couldn't figure it out from the website.

    Because the sign uses the wrong reference it makes me wonder if it's a private sector thing.

    Costco uses the wrong reference (ARS 13-3102) on their sign but it's irrelevant since it's private property.

    Fred

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I have no doubt that they are trying to confuse and trick people who read that and don't immediately have the resources to actually check the law referenced. Even a cursory reading of 4-229 A.1. reveals that it cannot possibly be applicable in this situation.

    4-229. Licenses; handguns; posting of notice
    A. A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following requirements:

    1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
    2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
    3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".

    B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.

    C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
    1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the violation.
    2. Any one or more of the following apply:
    (a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.
    (b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.
    (c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.

    D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make them available at no cost to licensees.

    E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters comprising the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch. Nothing shall prohibit a licensee from posting additional signs at one or more locations on the premises.

    F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:
    1. Seeking emergency aid.
    2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-02-2012 at 05:37 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Is the Arizona Workforce Connection "operated" by a state or local government agency or is it some cooperative project with the private sector? I couldn't figure it out from the website.

    Because the sign uses the wrong reference it makes me wonder if it's a private sector thing.

    Costco uses the wrong reference (ARS 13-3102) on their sign but it's irrelevant since it's private property.

    Fred
    If I remember correctly the emissions place in Phoenix (the one you have to go to if you attempt emissions too many times when the car's computer isn't ready ) used title 4 too.

    Government. Maricopa County Department of Human Services.

    Operations Manager
    Diana Shepherd
    (602) 506-4812

    http://www.maricopaworkforceconnecti...CFullBoard.pdf
    Last edited by sharkey; 10-02-2012 at 06:31 PM. Reason: Add more information

  6. #6
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    I sent an email to Dave Kopp at president@azcdl.org. I never did on the azdeq one though. Sorry.

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    lol @ the rent-a-cop threatening to take your gun.

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    Regular Member hdwizard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    I sent an email to Dave Kopp at president@azcdl.org. I never did on the azdeq one though. Sorry.
    I have not received any email on this subject, and I check my email at least once every day. It may have gotten eaten by a spam filter at some point along the line.

    Would you resend it please? ...

  9. #9
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdwizard View Post
    I have not received any email on this subject, and I check my email at least once every day. It may have gotten eaten by a spam filter at some point along the line.

    Would you resend it please? ...
    Resent. Is president@azcdl.org the correct email?

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    Resent. Is president@azcdl.org the correct email?
    Yes!

    You can find all contact info on AzCDL Directors and Officers here (scroll down the page).

    Fred

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    .... Costco uses the wrong reference (ARS 13-3102) on their sign but it's irrelevant since it's private property.
    Fred
    That sign at COSTCO is why I let my membership lapse.

    No such sign at Sam's Club though

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnufIs2Much View Post
    That sign at COSTCO is why I let my membership lapse...
    If you had canceled your membership and told them why, you would have received a full refund.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    First of all, the subject line here is misleading. The sign is NOT illegal. Signs of any type carries the weight of the law in AZ. The ARS quoted is incorrect, but that does NOT negate the sign. In AZ, posted is posted. Any sign will do.

    Learn a bit more about AZ posted establishments at Constitution Watch.


    Chris

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    Sharkey,

    Point taken re; post #2.

    However:

    The fact you want(ed) to change the title is irrelevant to the incorrect info being promulgated.

    Title 4 [4-229] is just the way the legislators drew up the law to allow CC in an establishment that serves alcohol. No more no less. Poorly thought out. However in 4-229, criteria is laid down on the correct TYPE and SIZE of sign, but also where it is to be posted and is ONLY VALID if the establishment is posting under 4-229 ONLY. This SAME establishment, that serves alcohol does not need to post under the criteria of 4-229. Posting a ghostbuster, or any other sign at the entrance(s) accomplishes the same, and carries the weight in law. There is NO CRITERIA on signs posted outside 4-229, so any sign will suffice.

    Now, let’s get to the dispute as to whether or not these OTHER postings carry the weight of law in AZ. Any posted establishment, including a hardware store, carries the weight in law because it ultimately leads to:

    ARS 13-1502

    13-1502. Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification

    A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:

    1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.

    ....snip....

    I’m not the only source for this. May I politely suggest you consult handgunlaw.us.

    You may want to edit out the last two sentences of your last post along with the last quote.

    Chris
    Last edited by Varmiter; 10-07-2012 at 11:59 PM.

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    Ok.......please explain the difference between a "No Guns" sign and a "No Trespass" sign. I would love to know the difference.

    BTW.....Govt buildings located in AZ ALSO...................repeat..............ALSO come under AZ law.

    Posted is posted.

    Re: Handgunlaw.us..........Just checked again.......my backup is still there.......Sorry sir. You not only need to READ the law, but you also need to understand what you read.

    Chris
    Last edited by Varmiter; 10-08-2012 at 12:25 AM.

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    Ok.....

    Given:
    Hardware store posted with:
    Gunbuster sign
    No shoes, No service.

    Both signs hold the same weight in law as previously stated.

    Now, the hardware store owner just happens to own the establishment across the street that serves alcohol for consumption.

    The hardware store owner can post EXACTLY the same signs on his establishment across the street at the entrance(s) and achieve his desired effect. He DOES NOT need to post under 4-229 to achieve the results he wishes.

    If you really think about it, 4-229 has minimal effect on the establishment under AZ law. As stated previously, ANY sign at the entrance(s) suffice.

    However, 4-229, while it has a minimal effect on the business owner, it had a big effect on the firearm carrier. If the establishment is NOT posted, it is WE who MUST fulfill the requirements of 4-229.

    The law specifies the height and lettering of postings UNDER 4-229 ONLY. As I pointed out earlier, an establishment can easily post any sign at the entrance(s) and bypass 4-229 entirely.

    Anyway, the topic here has strayed. You ORIGINALLY said that the posting was illegal when in fact it was not.

    I'm still waiting for your explanation of the difference between 'no guns' and 'trespass' signs.

    Chris
    Last edited by Varmiter; 10-08-2012 at 01:24 AM.

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    Can’t change the title of the thread. Well either you did, or a Mod did. I don’t know.

    Your ‘no storage’ point is taken.

    The rest is entirely incorrect, and the reasons have been stated previously. No shirt, no shoes no service, or no guns EXACTLY equal ‘no trespassing’.

    If you believe differently, then please be good enough to quote the relevant ARS that each case ultimately leads to.

    Chris

  18. #18
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varmiter View Post
    Can’t change the title of the thread. Well either you did, or a Mod did. I don’t know.

    Your ‘no storage’ point is taken.

    The rest is entirely incorrect, and the reasons have been stated previously. No shirt, no shoes no service, or no guns EXACTLY equal ‘no trespassing’.

    If you believe differently, then please be good enough to quote the relevant ARS that each case ultimately leads to.

    Chris

    Start a new thread. Stop hijacking mine about government buildings.

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    You yourself strayed off topic by engaging others bringing in say 4-229 LONG before I entered into the debate.

    I have NOT hijacked your thread. You yourself chose the course of the thread.

    In any event, I’m still waiting for the relevant ARS’s of which you CLAIM to be so knowledgeable.

    Until you can come up with the relevant ARS’s as far as I concerned, you have lost all credibility and the discussion need go no further.

    Chris

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    Thank you.

    You made my point for me in your understand of the law.

    Chris
    Last edited by Varmiter; 10-08-2012 at 03:06 AM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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  22. #22
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varmiter View Post
    First of all, the subject line here is misleading. The sign is NOT illegal. Signs of any type carries the weight of the law in AZ. The ARS quoted is incorrect, but that does NOT negate the sign. In AZ, posted is posted. Any sign will do.

    Learn a bit more about AZ posted establishments at Constitution Watch.


    Chris
    Grapeshot fixed the title for me. Thank you Grapeshot.

    This thread is about government buildings and no signs regardless of statutes quoted are valid. They are required to provide storage and Arizona Workforce Connection in Gilbert does not have storage.

    I have started a new thread on the questions you bring up regarding non government buildings.

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    YOU start a thread for me????????????????? WOW. Thank you very much. Speaks volumes.....

    Chris

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varmiter View Post
    YOU start a thread for me????????????????? WOW. Thank you very much. Speaks volumes.....

    Chris
    Yes, that you're too lazy to and would rather derail my thread on GOVERNMENT buildings.

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    Oh my......just a minute here.

    You yourself opened up the discussion, with others, long before I arrived. Then you continued to move the goal posts during our debate.

    Agreed, this is your thread. However, since you are unable to quote ANY ARS to backup your position, then as far as I’m concerned, this thread is closed. I look forward to the replies to the new thread OPENED FOR ME.. Thanks.

    Chris

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