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Thread: Hypothetical Defense of a Third Party Question

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    Hypothetical Defense of a Third Party Question

    Bear with me this is kinda long winded and odd but here goes nothing....

    I was out front with my dog this afternoon and some moron went flying down my street. That got me to thinking. If a person decided to beat my dog with a stick or some other deadly weapon for no apparent reason other than she's a pitbull and I used deadly force to protect her, would I be charged with a crime? My wife says yes because you can't shoot someone just because they attack your dog. I say why not? TX law allows deadly force to protect your property. In the eyes or the law isn't that what a dog is? I also wonder if a LEO can use deadly for to protect his K-9, why can't I do the same? Why does the law view his dog more valuable or more important than mine?

    Would I shoot someone in this scenario? I don't know, maybe. Let's hope I never have to find out. I was just curious what the fine folks at OCDO thought.

    Ready, set, discuss.......

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustangkiller View Post
    TX law allows deadly force to protect your property.
    Really I didn't know that. I don't have that right in my state.
    Could you site the law please?

    Also I've always heard that the cop dog is considered an officer.
    I believe in this situation I would try to protect the dog. If at this point the attacker stopped, fine. Call cops prepare to sue for property damages. If the attacker turned his attack toward me and I thought I was in danger of serious bodily harm I would use whatever force allowed by law to stop it.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    [QUOTE=twoskinsonemanns;1833638]Really I didn't know that. I don't have that right in my state.
    Could you site the law please?[QUOTE]

    Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You are welcome to verify my cut and paste in the TX DPS website

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    Some would argue animal cruelty should be under that statute. Others would suggest you keep your dog on a least and under control at all times.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Tough call....I think you might be within TX law. However it might be one of those times where you beat the rap but not the ride. If your dog is in the street and someone is beating it and you shoot them I think you would have a much worse legal battle than say if your dog was in your yard and someone was beating them. All in all, it is better to try and keep your pups where they are safe and sound under your watchful eye.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    OH OH OH. Look what I found, Mustang!

    http://blogs.findlaw.com/legally_wei...loved-cat.html

    It would seem that, if someone is actively harming your pet or there is imminent threat of harm, deadly force is justifiable.

    If someone starts beating on your pet for no apparent reason, then clean they're mentally unstable and likely to attack you. Even moreso if you try to stop the attack. Since this is Texas, we're not obligated to retreat and are permitted to use force and deadly force to protect ourselves, each other, our property and our neighbor's property. In this regard I'd imagine that, with a competent lawyer, you'd be able to successfully defend yourself in court should the need arise.

    Also, I just remembered this case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Luttrell#DASY

    Is might be a bad example. The victim here was a US Navy SEAL war hero that was the sole survivor of one of the deadliest SEAL missions in history. He lived in a rural county where he apparently knew the Sheriff's Deputy that responded to the call. He also didn't shoot anyone and perhaps most importantly, the dog's name was DASY, which was an acronym for the names of the members of his team that were killed in combat. The dog was given to him as a companion to aid in recuperation. The deputy likely knew this, but I'm not positive.

    But a breakdown of what happened: One night, four boys that were out partying came onto his property and killed his dog. Upon hearing the gunshots, Marcus grabbed a weapon and went to investigate. He found his dead dog at the feet of her killers, who booked. He jumped into a car and chased them while on the phone with the police. Somehow he got them off the road and held them at gun point until the deputies arrived.

    I'm rather disappointed that the wiki article doesn't quote the exchange between Marcus, the Deputies and the criminals. At some point, Marcus threatened to torture the criminals to death in his basement and dump their body in a field. I don't know at what point this was. Further, the criminals, as they were being arrested, threatened to come back after they got out of jail and kill him. Once they were in the car with the deputy, the deputy informed them exactly who they were talking to. I just wish I could have seen the look on their faces when they found out they were threatening one of the most highly trained killers on the planet.

    I'm going by memory of an interview, or interviewS, I'd seen years ago. So please forgive any inaccuracies. I can't find the interview though, I think it was on a day time talk show like Maury or something. I can't remember because the only reason I watched that show was for that interview. I don't normally watch those shows, so I can't even begin to guess what it was.

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    ok so in TX if someone is beating your dog....shoot them.....got it.



    edited to add... this is a bit tongue in cheek....it is obviously more nuanced than that.
    Last edited by MamabearCali; 10-03-2012 at 12:26 PM.

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    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Totally inappropriate
    Last edited by John Pierce; 10-05-2012 at 01:49 PM.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamabearCali View Post
    ok so in TX if someone is beating your dog....shoot them.....got it.



    edited to add... this is a bit tongue in cheek....it is obviously more nuanced than that.
    Or more accurately; when in Texas, don't mess with someone's pet. You never know whether they are armed or if they are actually retired Navy SEALs.

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    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 10-03-2012 at 03:07 PM.

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    You know, the law may "say" it is OK to use lethal force on a person to protect a pet, but boy I wouldn't recommend it.

    That list of conditions seems kinda long to think through on a moment's notice.

    And, regardless of what the law says, you need evidence to support your side of the story. Any gaps in the evidence, any shakiness in the evidence and you leave open a door for a career-minded prosecutor to exploit. "Ladies and Gentleman of the jury, we will prove to you that man shot and killed someone protecting himself from his unleashed pitbull, a clearly dangerous breed owned by a clearly dangerous man."

    And, lets not forget all the legal expenses of defending oneself. And, the months of being on the edge of your seat wondering if you are going to spend ten years in prison for manslaughter.

    I hate to say it, much as I love animals, I think I'd skip the lethal force and go for the cell phone video while trying to intervene and get the guy to stop. Then make him pay for the vet bills and what have you.

    Blame the state for making it too dangerous to defend your pet.


    PS: I use the same analysis on defending myself in my home. If its just me and burglar breaks in, I'm going out the window with the gun. The TV and blender are lots, lots cheaper than the stress and cost of a legal defense. Blame the state for making it dangerous to defend yourself in your own home.
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-03-2012 at 03:55 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I think the OP is actually taking about his girl ... we'll never know ... post a pic OP, let the forum decide
    It's comments like this that make me wish I was having these conversations face to face. F**k you, get out of my thread. That was rude and uncalled for. You dont know me well enough to be making jokes like that.

    Everyone else, thanx for the informative and well thought out comments. That's why I come here. The SEAL story had me laughing for quite a while picturing the looks on those morons faces when they found out who they pissed off.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustangkiller View Post
    It's comments like this that make me wish I was having these conversations face to face. F**k you, get out of my thread. That was rude and uncalled for. You dont know me well enough to be making jokes like that.

    Everyone else, thanx for the informative and well thought out comments. That's why I come here. The SEAL story had me laughing for quite a while picturing the looks on those morons faces when they found out who they pissed off.
    So someone with the name "Mustangkiller" supports defending animals and yet the name implies that they kill mustang horses.

    I know if someone were to mess with either my or a friend of mine's horse, while I am around, things would get messy fast. That is still a hanging offense in Washington.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    So someone with the name "Mustangkiller" supports defending animals and yet the name implies that they kill mustang horses.

    I know if someone were to mess with either my or a friend of mine's horse, while I am around, things would get messy fast. That is still a hanging offense in Washington.
    I assumed he wasn't a Ford fan.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I assumed he wasn't a Ford fan.
    I know that many ranchers kill Mustangs because they 'compete' with their cattle for food.
    The BLM chases them to death in helicopters too in the name of counting them.

    I really hope it's just a ford thing.

    Back on topic.

    Some one I know watched one hunter shoot another hunter's dog. There was a guy who's dog was attacking other dogs and the guy I know warned him to keep his dog under control. Then a 3rd hunter shows up and the aggressive dog attacks the new dog, the owner of the dog under attack gave warning, the owner of the aggressive dog did not take him seriously, so the 3 hunter shot the aggressive dog with his shotgun to defend his dog.

    I hope that is an apples to apples comparison.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    So, if a Mustang is threatening my Impala, I can shoot the Mustang?

    How about if a Cougar and Jaguar are threatening my Pinto?

    What if a Barracuda is threatening my Stingray? Can I gaff him?

    If The Flamingos are running for their lives from The Eagles, can I use lethal force?

    What if The B-52's are about to bomb The Animals?


    (Sorry, guys. I couldn't help myself. )
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-04-2012 at 03:30 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    (Sorry, guys. I couldn't help myself. )

    That's it, you're fired. :P
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Hahaha thus thread took an interesting turn....Just to settle the screen name thing, it has nothing to do with horses or disliking Fords (truth be told, I prefer them). Years ago I was signing up for a motorcycle forum and I couldn't think of anything interesting. I settled on mustangkiller because earlier that day I had one a couple light to light races with a guy in a mustang and beat him each time. Been using it since then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    ... Cougar ... threatening my Pinto ...
    First, the poor lady needs love, too. Second, don't emasculate yourself in public, man!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustangkiller View Post
    Hahaha thus thread took an interesting turn....Just to settle the screen name thing, it has nothing to do with horses or disliking Fords (truth be told, I prefer them). Years ago I was signing up for a motorcycle forum and I couldn't think of anything interesting. I settled on mustangkiller because earlier that day I had one a couple light to light races with a guy in a mustang and beat him each time. Been using it since then.
    So you admit to the criminal offense of reckless driving which could rise to the level of a felony?

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    So you admit to the criminal offense of reckless driving which could rise to the level of a felony?
    It depends on the state.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    That's it, you're fired. :P
    Be nice to me or I'll use some Nine Inch Nails to seal you into an Iron Maiden and cut off your Air Supply.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Be nice to me or I'll use some Nine Inch Nails to seal you into an Iron Maiden and cut off your Air Supply.
    Such a drama Queen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    Such a drama Queen.
    Oh, the others pick on me, so now U2?

    (actually, that was pretty good. )
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, the others pick on me, so now U2?

    (actually, that was pretty good. )
    Just be thankful I don't live 3 Doors Down from you, I'm quite the Disturbed person!

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