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Thread: Neighborhood Watch Legalities.

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    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Neighborhood Watch Legalities.

    I live in a quiet community about 10 miles from Flint, MI. Saturday, around 2:30 in the morning I stepped outside for a cigarette before bed and observed 3 individuals walk out from in between two town homes approaching a neighbors vehicle. 2 of them started looking into the car while the other was looking in the owners window of his town house. When one of the 2 at the car tried opening the door the car alarm went off and they took off. Since then, there has been a rash of thefts in multiple cars, and even a stolen mo ped which belonged to a good friend which was born with no legs from the knees down. This is his only means of transportation. I have as of today been given security status in the community. I openly carry a Springfield Armory XD-40 which everyone sees me carry daily, have a security shirt, security enforcement officer badge, and a set of police issue hand cuffs.
    Here is my question, what am I legally allowed to do, so I do not end up being the one who takes the ride downtown?

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    "security status"?

    Are you being employed by the HOA as a security officer?

    are you being employed by any entity as a security officer?

    What laws regulate security officers in your state?

    does your state license or require that one hold a security license to wear a security uniform?

    In the mean time I'm reading into the laws involving security in your state as soon as I post this, standby
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    From what I can tell, security seems to be a pretty heavily regulated and licensed activity in Michigan.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    First off I'm looking at Michigan law,

    Sections 338.1066 and .1069 appear to make it illegal to wear or use a badge that identifies you as a security officer unless you're licensed and defined as a security officer under 338.1054. 338.1069 appears to restrict security uniforms as well.

    If you are being employed or are exercising or representing yourself as a security officer you need to be licensed. Now part of this is inference as I have not read through every section, in Washington for instance one does not need a license if they're operating in-house security, meaning that say you have an HOA and they employ you to watch that HOA's property then you may not need one, you should contact your local police to see if that's the case.

    However if there is no HOA you're arguably in the business of protecting other's property meaning you're contract and you would definitely need a license under this statue.

    now if you are just an average joe involved in neighborhood watch for no money, I don't see any law that would require you to be licensed, but wearing security apparel and badge seems to be a definite no-no in that case.

    Otherwise if you're just walking around your block you should have all your rights to openly or conceal carry a weapon in accordance with the law. I can find no michigan statutes on handcuffs being restricted and you appear to have some basic arrest authority

    764.16 Arrest by private person; situations.
    Sec. 16.

    A private person may make an arrest—in the following situations:

    (a) For a felony committed in the private person's presence.

    (b) If the person to be arrested has committed a felony although not in the private person's presence.

    (c) If the private person is summoned by a peace officer to assist the officer in making an arrest.

    (d) If the private person is a merchant, an agent of a merchant, an employee of a merchant, or an independent contractor providing security for a merchant of a store and has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has violated section 356c or 356d of the Michigan penal code, Act No. 328 of the Public Acts of 1931, being sections 750.356c and 750.356d of the Michigan Compiled Laws, in that store, regardless of whether the violation was committed in the presence of the private person.
    However read carefully you can only arrest for a felony, so you should become aware of what relevant offenses are felonies, also I don't know what other sections of michigan regulate that.

    You really need to contact the state licensing authorities for security guards if you plan to work or act like one for your nieghborhood.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    I was asked by the management to keep an eye out for suspicious activity and try to intervene. As far as employed to perform this task, the answer is no and I'm not being payed. It's simply volunteering which a few have done. Another one of the volunteers lent me the badge with a security shirt. I just read that I do need a license to wear the badge. MCL 338.1066

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    Skip the whole security thing, you're an OCer who is just being a responsible citizen. If you see some suspicious activity, call the police. Don't use deadly force or citizens arrest unless it's a last resort, it aint worth the BS. Do your best to collect evidence for the local PD, but let them be the PD.

    If you do have to use deadly force, be aware that the word necessary is used three times in the self defense act. In other words, if you can escape, then you have to, the whole stand your ground thing in this state is a myth.

    SELF-DEFENSE ACT (EXCERPT)
    Act 309 of 2006

    780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.Sec. 2.
    (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
    (a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
    (b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
    (2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 10-03-2012 at 10:56 PM.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Also your HOA may be required to provide proper safety equipment and insurance workmanship comp etc some states require it for volunteers too, there's too much I don't know about your state to give you good advice. Observe and report is the best idea, unless someone's life is in immediate danger if you don't act then you just need to be a good witness for the police. My life isn't worth my neighbors crap especially if I'm not getting paid, while doing something legally questionable with no guarantee of insurance and possibly violating multiple portions of labor law,

    I agree with your friend skip the security act, too much trouble for you
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Michigan is not a property state. you can't protect someones car radio.

    Unfortunately.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 10-03-2012 at 11:04 PM.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Neighborhood Watch Legalities.

    My advise: don't be that dude in Florida, it isn't worth the legal trouble.

    George something?
    Last edited by TheQ; 10-03-2012 at 11:53 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Soros?

    Oooh, Zimmerman. duh.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 10-04-2012 at 12:00 AM.

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    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    I just got done speaking with a few of the other members of the neighborhood watch program. We have worked out what we are going to do. We have information on a possible address where the people responsible might stay. Not surprisingly, right here among us. We are going to have someone watch the possible address. When we see them in the act one of us is going to yell for them to to stop. The last time when someone else did this, they took off. If we see them retreat to this address, we will know where to send the police. Thanks for all the helpful advise.

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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneForAll View Post
    .... and a set of police issue hand cuffs.
    Here is my question, what am I legally allowed to do, so I do not end up being the one who takes the ride downtown?
    That is a good question you need to direct toward the police agency which issued the handcuffs. If they gave you cuffs then they certainly should have given you the training on how and when to use them as well as your other legal rights and responsibilities.
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    I dont think they were issued, sounds like a military surplus thing.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    My advise: don't be that dude in Florida, it isn't worth the legal trouble.

    George something?
    Make sure to only get attacked by white assailants
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Make sure to only get attacked by white assailants
    Why is that?

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    Politics. He's right. Not correct, but he's right.

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    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    They are African American. I seen them as I stated in my original post.
    Last edited by OneForAll; 10-04-2012 at 07:41 AM. Reason: Spelling

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    I agree with the poster who said forget about the security accoutrements. Just be a responsible citizen who also just happens to OC.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member FerretMI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneForAll View Post
    We are going to have someone watch the possible address. When we see them in the act one of us is going to yell for them to to stop. The last time when someone else did this, they took off. If we see them retreat to this address, we will know where to send the police.
    You should probably just call the police immediately upon seeing them attempting to break into vehicles/houses. Confronting them (i.e. yelling "STOP!") could make them retreat, but what would you do if they instead approached you? You have then created a situation in which you would feel the need to use your firearm, instead of letting the police handle it. Not only that, if you call the police you can detail the events of the break-in to the dispatcher as they happen, which will all be recorded as evidence against them. In your plan, the police show up after they have retreated to their house, and there is little to no evidence. Then it's your word against theirs. Let the police catch them in the act. Don't put yourself in the line of fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneForAll View Post
    They are African American. I seen them as I stated in my original post.
    So what country in Africa are they from? I'm a North America American myself.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Re: Neighborhood Watch Legalities.

    Without a license there are two things you are legally allowed to do. Observe. Report. Period. I ambin my local neighborhood watch and without the proper licensing, that is all we are allowed to do. Now, that does not prevent me or someone else from legal self defense, or the defense of others in the face of a felony, but that would be it.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock32 View Post
    So what country in Africa are they from? I'm a North America American myself.

    I wish more people thiught and acted this way. Kudos to you sir.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Neighborhood Watch Legalities.

    There was once noises outside my own home (a window knock at 1am). I called 9-1-1. The dispatcher asked if I had gone out to investigate the noises, I said, "no, I'm safe in my home and I'm armed, why would I step outside and become possibly involved in a confrontation?"


    I'd tell you too think this same mentality. "Stay safe"
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Re: Neighborhood Watch Legalities.

    To add to my previous post. Its also not a bad idea to contact your local law enforcement. Let them know you'll be doing the program. They may even be able to provide you with cell numbers of the officers on duty for more direct contact.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

  25. #25
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Neighborhood Watch Legalities.

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Michigan is not a property state. you can't protect someones car radio.

    Unfortunately.
    Yes. It's unfortunate. If we could defend property, I'd do so to prevent .gov thugs from taking my money any giving it to "disabled" people who have no right to it!!!!!
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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