If you open carry, people will test you.........

DrakeZ07 said:

Wait, I'm confused now.

I was meaning that if the use of our first amendment rights to speak a form of humour was ever to be the cause of arrest, as in the exercise of free speech became illegal, then the free exercise of free speech would be the leasto f our concerns, because if the First Amendment means nothing, then most, if not all of us on here, will have been jailed/put to death, for exercising our other rights. If the 1st amendment became illegal to use, then surely the 2nd, and 4th, and so on would also have been illegal along time ago, and we'd already have been thrown in jail for using our other amendments. And frankly, if I can't exercise my first amendment right, freely without risk of punishment, then I'd rather be put to death, or thrown in jail, because that's a time frame when everything we held dear has been destroyed.

Also, in general, I'm so confused on why I should edit my post, and ask the same of Glockster? what true intentions?

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You absolutely have a right to free speech, but that right has been determined to not be absolute. If you were to speak of committing a crime, or how you would execute a crime, that speech could be determined to be non-protected speech. What you said is not about whether it is protected speech or not; what you said could be problematic if you were to ever harm someone with lethal force, and had a prosecutor that would use such an expression as leverage to make you seem intent on causing serious harm to others.

KYGlockster said:

You absolutely have a right to free speech, but that right has been determined to not be absolute. If you were to speak of committing a crime, or how you would execute a crime, that speech could be determined to be non-protected speech. What you said is not about whether it is protected speech or not; what you said could be problematic if you were to ever harm someone with lethal force, and had a prosecutor that would use such an expression as leverage to make you seem intent on causing serious harm to others.

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Hmm, well, I never intend to use my sidearm. And if I am placed in the position of defending myself in court for self-defense, I seriously doubt anything said, or not said, on this forum, "can and will be used against" me. Wouldn't it be circumstantial or libel or something, to take what someone said on a forum, out of context, and apply it to any future defense they may or may not have?

Sorry, but I think your just making a big deal out of nothing, and being a bit too paranoid. I made a reference to the movie involving hannibal lecter, and even stated such in the latter half. Stop dragging every word I said out and hashing and re-hasing it to try and brow beat me into taking it back.

Yes, certain things of speech are not protected, however, there are no laws protecting, nor denying, the ability to freely joke and make snarky comments.

Drake, you have it all wrong. Glockster and I are pointing out that what you said could portray you in a light you don't want to be cast in.

You have (or should) every right to make jokes, even ones about crime. If that is all that ever happens then you should be fine. But what happens if something terrible happen and you had to use your firearm in self defense. Everything seems that your use of a firearm was justified and then, oh no, they found a post that seems like you were just itching to make a (literal) killing.

Also, a situation like that would be a stretch to consider libel or slander. They wouldn't even have to take it out of context. They could read the whole thread to a jury. Here it is a thread is started about being "tested" for OCing. Then you come up and talk about meticulously murdering people. Then say it is a joke.

The thing about the system we have now is that things you say cannot be used for you case (usually), just against it.

So don't think that Glockster or I are trying to do anything anything but help you.

I'd test them. Give them a blue gun and see how well they do with an attacker coming at them from 15 feet away.

Point taken, and understood now, think I just needed it plainly clarified like that, and I'm sorry and apologize if y'all felt I was lashing out at either of you.

Glockster, may I ask that you edit you're one original qoutation of my dark reference? I appreciated it in advance either way~ <3

ScottE said:

I'd test them. Give them a blue gun and see how well they do with an attacker coming at them from 15 feet away.

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They'll do consistently better than they would running the same test from concealment.

Surely that wasn't the point you were attempting to make...

ATM said:

They'll do consistently better than they would running the same test from concealment.

Surely that wasn't the point you were attempting to make...

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All depends. Drawing from concealment adds maybe .25 - .5 seconds to ones draw if they are well practiced.

The point of my post was that the average man can run 10 feet per second. So an attack that starts from 15 feet away gives the victim 1 second realize what is happening, react, draw, get on target, and pull the trigger - after that 1 second, the attacker will only be 5 feet away, nearly within arms reach. Can most people realize what is happening, react, draw, get on target, and pull the trigger in 1 second? Hell no.

I think this is something most people don't think about. Most attacks start from within 20 feet away or less. This is where practicing gun grabs, on the ground struggles, and grappling is important. There is a very good chance this is how things may end up.

Being prepared while the attacker is still 30 feet away would be ideal, as this gives a trained person time to realize what is happening, react, draw, get on target, and shoot. But starting out with that convenient 30 feet of distance highly unlikely to happen.

So, practice drawing with a dry gun often. Practice in your backyard with a blue gun - have a friend be the attacker from various distances, have them hide behind something and ambush you , etc. And of course, constantly practice situational awareness everywhere you go.

DrakeZ07 said:

Point taken, and understood now, think I just needed it plainly clarified like that, and I'm sorry and apologize if y'all felt I was lashing out at either of you.

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I didn't feel that you were lashing out. We are all friends here.

ScottE, simply trying to draw your gun first with someone charging you from 15 feet sounds like task fixation, a common startle response by those who may practice but don't realistically train.

I've witnessed plenty of well practiced folks fail such scenarios when the adrenaline starts pumping, and often, if they managed to draw at all, they're left grasping a blue gun wrapped up in a fistful of their own shirt.

Carrying unconcealed would give the clear advantage in the test you suggested. Moving, redirecting, blocking with the support arm while drawing with the primary hand only is going to lead to lots of fumbles with a cover garment.

Citizen said:

The CC instructor in the OP is a bit limited in his imagination.

I can still count the negative comments on one hand from five years of OCing. None were testing me. That is to say, none were trying to get under my skin. They were just complaining about guns.

However, I have lost track of the number of positive comments I've received from total strangers regarding my OCd sidearm. I would guess somewhere in the vicinity of three dozen positive comments.

The CC instructor in the OP just tossed out his first reaction/thought apparently never considering you might get lots and lots of positive comments.

Probably has something to do with the fact that he's not imagining promoting self-defense by OCing.

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I've had a similar experience. Very few negative comments. Mostly when I was in downtown Lansing. But positive comments, I've lost track of how many I've gotten. Either just for carrying, or for my choice of pistol. (Usually my RIA 1911 Tactical matte Nickel finish.)

ATM said:

ScottE, simply trying to draw your gun first with someone charging you from 15 feet sounds like task fixation, a common startle response by those who may practice but don't realistically train.

I've witnessed plenty of well practiced folks fail such scenarios when the adrenaline starts pumping, and often, if they managed to draw at all, they're left grasping a blue gun wrapped up in a fistful of their own shirt.

Carrying unconcealed would give the clear advantage in the test you suggested. Moving, redirecting, blocking with the support arm while drawing with the primary hand only is going to lead to lots of fumbles with a cover garment.

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^^^^^The voice of experience.^^^^^^

If cops were ordered to ALL conceal their weapons, they'd scream their terrified little heads off because of exactly what ATM points out above.

And Scotty. You've done real well for only having a firearm less than what, six weeks?

08-09-2012, 11:16 PM: I'm new here and to gun ownership. I'm taking a Basic Handgun class and Permit Course next month.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?105772-Permit-To-Purchase

09-27-2012, 03:52 PM: Took my Carry Permit class last Sunday and submitted my Carry Permit application 2 days ago.

According to my math, you don't have a Minnesota carry permit yet, so you have no real world experience you are drawing from when suggesting this site, and the method of carry supported here, change....right?

Mind letting us know where you picked up this superb life changing, zen-like instruction?

ATM said:

ScottE, simply trying to draw your gun first with someone charging you from 15 feet sounds like task fixation, a common startle response by those who may practice but don't realistically train.

I've witnessed plenty of well practiced folks fail such scenarios when the adrenaline starts pumping, and often, if they managed to draw at all, they're left grasping a blue gun wrapped up in a fistful of their own shirt.

Carrying unconcealed would give the clear advantage in the test you suggested. Moving, redirecting, blocking with the support arm while drawing with the primary hand only is going to lead to lots of fumbles with a cover garment.

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My comment wasn't intended to be an OC vs CC thing. It was intended for either method.

ScottE said:

All depends. Drawing from concealment adds maybe .25 - .5 seconds to ones draw if they are well practiced.

The point of my post was that the average man can run 10 feet per second. So an attack that starts from 15 feet away gives the victim 1 second realize what is happening, react, draw, get on target, and pull the trigger - after that 1 second, the attacker will only be 5 feet away, nearly within arms reach. Can most people realize what is happening, react, draw, get on target, and pull the trigger in 1 second? Hell no.

I think this is something most people don't think about. Most attacks start from within 20 feet away or less. This is where practicing gun grabs, on the ground struggles, and grappling is important. There is a very good chance this is how things may end up.

Being prepared while the attacker is still 30 feet away would be ideal, as this gives a trained person time to realize what is happening, react, draw, get on target, and shoot. But starting out with that convenient 30 feet of distance highly unlikely to happen.

So, practice drawing with a dry gun often. Practice in your backyard with a blue gun - have a friend be the attacker from various distances, have them hide behind something and ambush you , etc. And of course, constantly practice situational awareness everywhere you go.

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I watched all those Youtube videos too.

Some real world advice.

Ambush: Pure primeval survival mode.
<5 seconds warning, fight or flight mode.
>5 - <10 seconds warning, you may have time to realize that you have to fight or flight.
>10 seconds warning, use lethal force or not decision making process kicks in.

What does training with your pistol entail? Not shooting yourself in the foot when the juices start flowing. Once you get past that critical point I have no idea what will happen.

Practice shooting from retention.....some sage advice I received long ago.

OC for ME said:

I watched all those Youtube videos too.

Some real world advice.

Ambush: Pure primeval survival mode.
<5 seconds warning, fight or flight mode.
>5 - <10 seconds warning, you may have time to realize that you have to fight or flight.
>10 seconds warning, use lethal force or not decision making process kicks in.

What does training with your pistol entail? Not shooting yourself in the foot when the juices start flowing. Once you get past that critical point I have no idea what will happen.

Practice shooting from retention.....some sage advice I received long ago.

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I don't know. I think you'd be lucky if you have as much time to react as you mention in your post. Look at the thousands of caught on video attacks. Most of them come with total surprise and little to no time to react - meaning you're drawing your while taking cover, because the BG already has his gun on you.

Well, after drawing, get moving - a moving target is more difficult to shoot. Aim for center mass and shoot under the threat ceases.

I do agree on the retention shooting, if you can find a place to practice it with live rounds. Otherwise practice dry at home, or with a blue gun and friend playing the BG.

ScottE said:

I don't know. I think you'd be lucky if you have as much time to react as you mention in your post. Look at the thousands of caught on video attacks. Most of them come with total surprise and little to no time to react - meaning you're drawing your while taking cover, because the BG already has his gun on you.

Well, after drawing, get moving - a moving target is more difficult to shoot. Aim for center mass and shoot under the threat ceases.

I do agree on the retention shooting, if you can find a place to practice it with live rounds. Otherwise practice dry at home, or with a blue gun and friend playing the BG.

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The bolded above is usually taken to equate to being ambushed.

If you have little to no time to react then you are not likely to even think about drawing and ect. until and if you can find a second or two to think about drawing and ect.

Shooting from retention (shot placement) can only be successfully "learned" via live fire exercises. The target gives the student instant feed back on shot placement. Non-live fire exercises only train muscles to accomplish the draw.

Just like western movies.....draw and shoot from the hip while looking at your target. A very expensive skill to learn and become proficient at.

OC for ME said:

The bolded above is usually taken to equate to being ambushed.

If you have little to no time to react then you are not likely to even think about drawing and ect. until and if you can find a second or two to think about drawing and ect.

Shooting from retention (shot placement) can only be successfully "learned" via live fire exercises. The target gives the student instant feed back on shot placement. Non-live fire exercises only train muscles to accomplish the draw.

Just like western movies.....draw and shoot from the hip while looking at your target. A very expensive skill to learn and become proficient at.

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I've only had one encounter with a bad guy in my adult life - 3 late teens harrassing me and wanting to rob me. One had a gun and showed it to me but never pointed it at me. Luckily we were in a crowded public place - a sidewalk in downtown Philly. In the end they just gave up and left. I would have had plenty of time to draw had I been carrying - not sure if just showing me a gun would have been considered life threatening - perhaps it would have - I know I felt like my life might be on the line. I imagine most confrontations are far more intense and faster.

ScottE said:

I've only had one encounter with a bad guy in my adult life - 3 late teens harrassing me and wanting to rob me. One had a gun and showed it to me but never pointed it at me. Luckily we were in a crowded public place - a sidewalk in downtown Philly. In the end they just gave up and left. I would have had plenty of time to draw had I been carrying - not sure if just showing me a gun would have been considered life threatening - perhaps it would have - I know I felt like my life might be on the line. I imagine most confrontations are far more intense and faster.

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You would have to check the laws in your jurisdiction.

Generally speaking, "life threatening" is not the formula. Generally, AOJ/I is the formula: Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy/Intent. Jeopardy/Intent are pretty much talking about the same thing. Some instructors use the older version--intent. Others seem to try to get away from intent because they say you cannot read someone's mind, but can judge whether you are in immediate jeopardy by outward signs. Two sides of the same coin. Also, grave bodily injury is generally included, not just life threatening. And, disparity of force is included.

If you always use AOJ/I to analyze these things, you'll come out ahead of many of the posters here who seem to otherwise jump to conclusions.

You didn't give all the details, but lets use what you did give.

Ability: three bad guys, one gun displayed or brandished. Check.

Opportunity: presumably within range of the gun. And three full-size teens standing nearby. Check.

Jeopardy/Intent: Lets assume they made some overt statement that clearly announced a robbery. Thus, you were in jeopardy.

Thus, I (who is not a lawyer) would say lethal force was legally justified. I know of no requirement that you actually wait until the gun is actually pointed at you before jeopardy kicks in.



Take a moment to find out more about AOJ. Massad Ayoob's video Judicious Use of Deadly Force is now on YouTube. Also, there are some websites that discuss it in enough depth to be useful. Just google AOJ.

If someone shows you a gun as they are trying to rob you then you must think they are willing to use it. Draw and shoot them.

DrakeZ07 said:

Point taken, and understood now, think I just needed it plainly clarified like that, and I'm sorry and apologize if y'all felt I was lashing out at either of you.

Glockster, may I ask that you edit you're one original qoutation of my dark reference? I appreciated it in advance either way~ <3

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You need to delete all of post #17 as well because it has my post in it that you wanted deleted. I deleted the original.

person DJ said:

If someone shows you a gun as they are trying to rob you then you must think they are willing to use it. Draw and shoot them.

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Exactly! Anyone that attempts to rob you by using force (which most robberies are committed with the use of force) can be shot dead and it is justified under KRS 503.050 & 503.055.