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Thread: Out of state requires photo copy state issued ID to make repair... Law?

  1. #1
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Out of state requires photo copy state issued ID to make repair... Law?

    I was told I had to send a copy of a state issued ID along with a AR lower back to the manufacturer in order to have it repaired under warranty.
    They claim it is an ATF regulation. Can someone link this regulation for me. I have not heard of it.
    I just received a firearm a week ago that I sent to a Colorado repair shop that did not require this.
    Law or BS?

    Thanks
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    All ATF regulations are on the Internet. Can you ask them which one, since they are the one making the claim? You can be nice about it; just tell them it's for your insurance log book or something, and they'll probably [attempt to] provide it, or discover it doesn't exist.

    I've personally never heard of it, but haven't been in those situations enough to know all the rules for it.
    Last edited by MAC702; 10-06-2012 at 05:20 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Go ahead and send them a copy of your state-issued ID. Just reduce it to about 10%. Now they have your lower and your ID. What are they going to do, send it back unrepaired?

    Or call them up and tell them that it is a violation of state law to make a copy of the ID document. Ask them what to do that does not involve a complaint campaign?

    And next time you run into something like this, name names from the beginning. Folks want to know who is flimging the BS or knows the most obscure ATF reg ever heard so far.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    I have mailed one of my guns to a gunsmith and a stock maker and never once had to proved any form of ID.

    Might ask what the regulation is so that you can show all your gun owning friends. Be polite share the name of the manufacturer so that the rest of us can choose their competitor and send them a messages explaining how much we would have loved to buy their guns. but ...... you know.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Got a reply back! HA! They'll never get my business again. This was my 3rd email to them so I can understand what a huge waste of time it must have been.

    Ill be honest. I'm getting tired of your back and forth banter and you're now wasting the time of my staff and myself and you're taking away from others customer service time. You were told our store policy and why it is in place. If you'd like to research ATF guidelines then do it on your time. You can either follow the directions you've been given or you can stop emailing our store.

    David M Famiglietti
    President
    New Frontier Armory
    150 E Centennial Parkway
    North Las Vegas, NV 89084
    www.newfrontierarmory.com
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    That's a local store here with several locations and a very good reputation. Interesting. They are forum sponsors (as am I) of the Nevada Shooters forum: www.nevadashooters.com. They have their own forum there for specific threads about their store.

    I posed the question in a generic forum there without naming the store.
    Last edited by MAC702; 10-06-2012 at 06:07 PM.
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    They sound like the TSA, just making up stuff & not being able to cite a reference.

    I would not do business with them either.

    Keep the Faith.

  8. #8
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    That's a local store here with several locations and a very good reputation. Interesting. They are forum sponsors (as am I) of the Nevada Shooters forum: www.nevadashooters.com. They have their own forum there for specific threads about their store.

    I posed the question in a generic forum there without naming the store.
    Cool. let me know if anything interesting comes up.

    I am generally very forgiving and reasonable when it comes to manufacturers and retailers.... but this response was unacceptable.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    One response so far that confirms S&W does not require it for warranty returns.

    Come to think of it, I returned a gun to S&W in February and didn't have to do anything but slap on the prepaid shipping label...
    Last edited by MAC702; 10-06-2012 at 07:13 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Got a reply back! HA! They'll never get my business again. This was my 3rd email to them so I can understand what a huge waste of time it must have been.

    Ill be honest. I'm getting tired of your back and forth banter and you're now wasting the time of my staff and myself and you're taking away from others customer service time. You were told our store policy and why it is in place. If you'd like to research ATF guidelines then do it on your time. You can either follow the directions you've been given or you can stop emailing our store.

    David M Famiglietti
    President
    New Frontier Armory
    150 E Centennial Parkway
    North Las Vegas, NV 89084
    www.newfrontierarmory.com
    TWOSKINS, i hope that you sent one more email telling them to go fornicate themselves and why they will not be getting any of your or anyone you know business
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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  11. #11
    Regular Member pfries's Avatar
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    The only ATF Regulation I am aware of that even touches this is

    THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968
    TITLE 18, UNITED STATE CODE, CHAPTER 44

    § 922 Unlawful acts.
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    (1) for any person—

    (A) except a licensed importer, licensed
    manufacturer, or licensed
    dealer, to engage in the business of
    importing, manufacturing, or dealing
    in firearms, or in the course of such
    business to ship, transport, or receive
    any firearm in interstate or foreign
    commerce; or

    (B) except a licensed importer or
    licensed manufacturer, to engage in
    the business of importing or manufacturing
    ammunition, or in the
    course of such business, to ship,
    transport, or receive any ammunition
    in interstate or foreign commerce;

    (2) for any importer, manufacturer,
    dealer, or collector licensed under the
    provisions of this chapter to ship or
    transport in interstate or foreign commerce
    any firearm to any person other
    than a licensed importer, licensed
    manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed
    collector, except that—

    (A) this paragraph and subsection
    (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a
    licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
    licensed dealer, or licensed collector
    from returning a firearm or
    replacement firearm of the same kind
    and type to a person from whom it
    was received; and this paragraph
    shall not be held to preclude an individual
    from mailing a firearm owned
    in compliance with Federal, State,
    and local law to a licensed importer,
    licensed manufacturer, licensed
    dealer, or licensed collector;

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    TWOSKINS, i hope that you sent one more email telling them to go fornicate themselves and why they will not be getting any of your or anyone you know business
    For now I have chosen not to reply. My correspondence has been very professional and polite, I want to keep the extreme contrast to their message for now as I tell the story all over the web. The folks at AR15.com have been especially receptive.

    Quote Originally Posted by pfries View Post
    [FONT=Verdana]The only ATF Regulation I am aware of that even touches this is
    THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968
    TITLE 18, UNITED STATE CODE, CHAPTER 44
    Snipped. Thanks pfries. I saw that too. I've been combing through the ATF website law pdfs for anything I might have missed. What an incredible, convoluted document. Very nicely written to keep people unable to easily understand legal-right from legal-wrong and thus kept in fear of acting unlawfully by accident. Well done ATF.............. where is that give-em'-the-bird emoticon?
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    One response so far that confirms S&W does not require it for warranty returns.

    Come to think of it, I returned a gun to S&W in February and didn't have to do anything but slap on the prepaid shipping label...
    Hey I checked out that thread. No one seems to think the copy of the ID is required.
    The thread over in the New Frontier Armory subforum of AR15.com was getting too much attention I guess.
    They deleted everyone's posts except for mine, EDITED my post to make it look like I said something I didn't, then locked the thread!
    Pretty shady. Pretty very shady. Needless to say I won't ever be doing business with them again.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member CDT COX's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^link?

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    If your asking for a link to AR15 thread here it is.
    but as I said there's not a whole lot left to it after the creative editing....


    http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_376/2..._a_repair.html
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member CDT COX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    If your asking for a link to AR15 thread here it is.
    but as I said there's not a whole lot left to it after the creative editing....


    http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_376/2..._a_repair.html
    wow that kind of pisses me off.

  17. #17
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDT COX View Post
    wow that kind of pisses me off.
    Yup. To be perfectly honest I was shocked over their response.
    Even more surprising is just the general hostility I receive when I question anyone's need for certain personal information they ask for.
    This company told me the ATF required I send a photo copy of a State issue ID card in order to have the lower repaired and got very hostile when I questioned it.
    But I get the same type of reaction in some-what similar situations everywhere. Such as questions my family's doctor has asked. When I respond "why do you need to know that?" the conversation turns hostile suddenly. Why the heck is that?
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Yup. To be perfectly honest I was shocked over their response.
    Even more surprising is just the general hostility I receive when I question anyone's need for certain personal information they ask for.
    This company told me the ATF required I send a photo copy of a State issue ID card in order to have the lower repaired and got very hostile when I questioned it.
    But I get the same type of reaction in some-what similar situations everywhere. Such as questions my family's doctor has asked. When I respond "why do you need to know that?" the conversation turns hostile suddenly. Why the heck is that?
    The "professionals" react like that because they have come to expect us lesser individuals to respond automatically with the desired information. It upsets them when someone challenges their right to know these things.
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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    You Will Respect My Authoritah!

    I got nothing else, sorry.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Well how can they require you to have a government issued ID when I cannot find anything in any constitution granting the government the authority to identify anyone by means of a government issued ID.

    Now heading a little bit off topic to explain that statement.

    The laws in this country prohibit or require certain actions and if what you are doing is not prohibited or required then you are free to do or not do what you want.

    The constitutions of the states are limiting documents. If it is not spelled out in the constitution of that state that the state has a power/authority to do something, then the state does not have the power/authority to do it. I am not saying that they follow their constitution just saying how it is supposed to be. That is why you often find the power to create roadways, collect taxes, and a whole host of other activities listed in a state constitution. So if issuing a state/government ID is NOT listed as a power granted to a state then the state has not authority to issue an ID of any sort. The closest to that would be some form of a tax stamp to engage in such activities that you need the state's permission to engage in (commercial driver license or a state CPL). EVEN THEN that could never require the confirmation of an identity. If it's your picture is on the tax card then you've paid the tax that permits you to engage in the listed activity(ies). Even if you don't have a photo on the tax stamp it would be incumbent on the state to PROVE that you did not pay that tax.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    I was told I had to send a copy of a state issued ID along with a AR lower back to the manufacturer in order to have it repaired under warranty.
    They claim it is an ATF regulation.
    If they know that the firearms they sell are junk they might be getting ready to send a replacement but, then I would thing that they would claim they needed a FFL to transfer that replacement to.

    Unless there is some regulation that the ATF allows a warranty replacement to be shipped straight to the customer?

    ....

    After reading that forum post there I will not be doing business with them either.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Out of state requires photo copy state issued ID to make repair... Law?

    There need be nothing in the US Constitution as it is the State governments issuing most IDs. The IDs that the federal government issues are generally intended to identify individuals within a department of the government, for example, military IDs. Many agencies and private organizations outside those departments will recognize those IDs because they are so reliable as a means of identification. For example, my credit union accepts my military ID when making withdrawals.


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    Last edited by eye95; 10-12-2012 at 10:08 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    There need be nothing in the US Constitution as it is the State governments issuing most IDs. The IDs that the federal government issues are generally intended to identify individuals within a department of the government, for example, military IDs. Many agencies and private organizations outside those departments will recognize those IDs because they are so reliable as a means of identification. For example, my credit union accepts my military ID when making withdrawals.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.
    -100 failing to read, poor use of the English language, and self contradiction.

    I was addressing all constitutions and said state constitutions.

    Then you just contradict yourself. You still failed to show any authority to issue ID in the federal constitution and then claim it's okay for the federal government to do it (eg military ID). How did they do it during the war of independence?

    You have still failed to show where any government has been granted the power, in any constitution, to create a government issued ID.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    What did I fail to read?? Enlighten me.

    There is no contradiction. All employers are free to issue ID cards to their employees, so is the federal government as an employer. Duh. No constitutional authority need exist for the federal government to act as an employer and to do the things that other employers do. Again, duh.

    -1000. Your turn. Never mind. I pointed out something you overlooked (that States issue IDs to citizens and feds issue IDs to employees) and you had to turn it personal. Go away. I made my point. There is no point in my further engaging someone behaving like an...... There are many other folks here worth talking to.

    Oh, and one more attempt at rationality. The US Constitution is a limiting document. If the feds are not granted a power over citizens, they don't have it. State constitutions are not limiting documents. States have authorities by their very existence that need not be embodied in a constitution and don't require their powers be enumerated.
    Last edited by eye95; 10-12-2012 at 10:52 AM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    I was told I had to send a copy of a state issued ID along with a AR lower back to the manufacturer in order to have it repaired under warranty.
    They claim it is an ATF regulation. Can someone link this regulation for me. I have not heard of it.
    I just received a firearm a week ago that I sent to a Colorado repair shop that did not require this.
    Law or BS?

    Thanks
    Why waste time with the in the first place? If the warranty is issued by the retailer/repair shop then I guess you are stuck with them. If it is a manufactures warranty then is there not another repair facilty available? Just asking becaues the warranty issuer was not stated in your OP.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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