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Thread: Legality of carry in a posted NON government, non alcohol serving business.

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Legality of carry in a posted NON government, non alcohol serving business.

    Varmiter shared the opinion in another one of my threads (off topic) that entering a business with a no guns sign is trespass. I say that AZ 13-1502 does not cover that.

    I am not asking about the morality of carrying in a posted business, only the legality of it. Except for that one time at Jack in the Box I subscribe to the no guns = no money policy.

    ETA Here are links to Varmiter's blogs. He used the constitutionwatch one as a cite on the other thread without disclosing that he is the author.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/some...ona-carry-laws

    http://constitutionwatch.wordpress.c...na-carry-laws/
    Last edited by sharkey; 10-08-2012 at 05:00 AM. Reason: Add Links to Chris' blogs

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    I look forward to the replies here.

    Chris

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    This is all I've found on this forum so far. I forgot to mention that Varmiter is saying you can be cited for trespass prior to being asked to leave if they have a no guns sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    The statute they cite is irrelavant and I've never seen one that is correct. It's a private property tresspassing issue. And whether you open or discrete carry doesn't matter.

    They are saying they do not want patrons carrying guns. If they ask you leave, you must. If you refuse to leave you can be arrested on a tresspass charge.

    Fred
    Last edited by sharkey; 10-08-2012 at 03:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    This is all I've found on this forum so far. I forgot to mention that Varmiter is saying you can be cited for trespass prior to being asked to leave if they have a no guns sign.
    I don't see why you couldn't be... as he quoted the law in the other thread, "knowingly entering" a posted property is grounds for trespass.

    If my yard is posted and you still enter, I'd hope you could be cited for trespassing without me having to ask you to leave. Otherwise, what's the point of a sign?

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzbk2l View Post
    I don't see why you couldn't be... as he quoted the law in the other thread, "knowingly entering" a posted property is grounds for trespass.

    If my yard is posted and you still enter, I'd hope you could be cited for trespassing without me having to ask you to leave. Otherwise, what's the point of a sign?
    Right, but that kind of trespass is for areas not open to the public.

    If I enter an establishment that has a no lawyers sign (wrong locale and a bar, oops) or no shirt sign can I be arrested immediately or do I have to be given notice? Your yard is different than a Wal-Mart. You can exclude people from your yard based on anything, race, religion, etc. I know that's different from guns but I'm trying to make a point.

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    Let’s look at 13-1502 once again.

    13-1502. Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification

    A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:

    1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.

    The ‘on ANY real property’ portion of 13-1502 basically means a sign, of any type, in a front yard or a posted business are the same for the purpose of trespass. This includes but not limited to, shirts, shoes, guns, water bottles, dogs etc.

    You seem to think somehow the front yard and a posted business are different and as such the trespass law(s) apply differently to each. I would really be interested how, through the law, you came to this conclusion.

    Chris

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Regardless, I would think that one could argue that they did not "knowingly" enter a business that does not allow guns if they claim they did not see a sign. After all, if you claim that you did not see a gun buster sign, then you would not have known that the establishment prohibits firearms on their property. I have been to many locations that have gun buster signs that are so obscure that you would literally need to take an entire minute to scan the entrance to locate it. In fact, I was once at a store that did not have a gun buster sign posted on the outside of the entrance, but rather, on the inside as you are walking out of the store! Seriously!

    My approach to the problem is simple; if your business/establishment is not firearms friendly, then I will go elsewhere. Granted, there are exceptions that a person can't really fail to make, such as jury duty, work, etc. But, when I'm able to make a conscious decision and there are other viable alternatives, then I do so, even if I'm not carrying at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    Regardless, I would think that one could argue that they did not "knowingly" enter a business that does not allow guns if they claim they did not see a sign. After all, if you claim that you did not see a gun buster sign, then you would not have known that the establishment prohibits firearms on their property. I have been to many locations that have gun buster signs that are so obscure that you would literally need to take an entire minute to scan the entrance to locate it. In fact, I was once at a store that did not have a gun buster sign posted on the outside of the entrance, but rather, on the inside as you are walking out of the store! Seriously!

    My approach to the problem is simple; if your business/establishment is not firearms friendly, then I will go elsewhere. Granted, there are exceptions that a person can't really fail to make, such as jury duty, work, etc. But, when I'm able to make a conscious decision and there are other viable alternatives, then I do so, even if I'm not carrying at that time.
    I couldn’t agree more.

    I too have seen VERY obscure signs. One was even a 4-229 sign posted entirely incorrectly and in a position that was 6 to 8 feet above your head, taped to skylight window. The only reason I noticed it was because I was told it was posted so I went and looked. Took 15 minutes to find it because I would never have thought to look there for anything, let alone a no firearms sign.

    These obscure postings can certainly be used as an affirmative defense if you get busted.

    Chris

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    +1 to badly placed no gun signs. I see em all the time. If you leave a business how can they get you for trespassing? Even so what is tresspassing a misdemeanor and a fine? As long as it isn't a felony it isn't that big of deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morbidph8 View Post
    +1 to badly placed no gun signs. I see em all the time. If you leave a business how can they get you for trespassing? Even so what is tresspassing a misdemeanor and a fine? As long as it isn't a felony it isn't that big of deal.
    Class 3 misdemeanor CAN have 30 days jail time. I haven’t been able to find the amount of fine that could be imposed.

    Chris

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morbidph8 View Post
    +1 to badly placed no gun signs. I see em all the time. If you leave a business how can they get you for trespassing? Even so what is tresspassing a misdemeanor and a fine? As long as it isn't a felony it isn't that big of deal.
    Pulled this from an AzCDL email where a member posed a similar question and was answered by a fellow Board member. It seems approrpiate here:

    "There is no direct statutory violation for walking past a "No Firearms" or "No weapons" sign in any other private establishment. HOWEVER, and this is important, a private property owner has the right to set whatever conditions of entry to their property that they wish. Any sign they post to that effect, including any variant of a "No weapons" sign, is considered a constructive notice of their intent, and will be so considered in a court of law. In short, if you ignore the sign, and you get caught, you can be charged with criminal trespass under ARS 13-1502, 1503, or 1504, with penalties ranging from a class 3 misdemeanor to a class 6 felony.

    Generally, if you're seen carrying in a private business that's posted, you'll be asked to leave, or possibly to secure your firearm in your vehicle, and if you comply, that will be the end of it. However, it doesn't have to go that way, it's strictly up to the property owner how they handle it. Typically, the larger and more obvious the sign you ignored, the more likely it is that a call to law enforcement will be the first option. And that also bears directly on the "I didn't see the sign" excuse holding up, both with the police and the judge. A tiny little sign down at the bottom of the door that you'd need a microscope to see will likely be excused. A great big banner over the door with a gunbuster logo (red circle/slash over a gun pic), typically repeated several times before you get three feet in the door, should have given you a clue that "I didn't see it" wasn't going to fly."


    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 10-09-2012 at 04:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    "There is no direct statutory violation for walking past a "No Firearms" or "No weapons" sign in any other private establishment.

    Fred
    Fred,
    I don't understand the above as it appears to be negated by everything that follows.

    Am I missing something?

    Chris
    Last edited by Varmiter; 10-09-2012 at 04:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varmiter View Post
    Fred,
    I don't understand the above as it appears to be negated by everything that follows. Am I missing something?Chris
    I thought the issue was entering a business that didn't fall under the liquor laws or a "public" building?

    Is so, there is no firearm law dealing with the issue. It's a tresspass issue based on the whim of the property owner, which is what I thought I was posting.

    Like I said, I was reposting from somewhere else. It looked clear to me. What did I miss that I can help you with?

    Thanks,
    Fred

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    I thought the issue was entering a business that didn't fall under the liquor laws or a "public" building?

    Is so, there is no firearm law dealing with the issue. It's a tresspass issue based on the whim of the property owner, which is what I thought I was posting.

    Like I said, I was reposting from somewhere else. It looked clear to me. What did I miss that I can help you with?

    Thanks,
    Fred
    Fred,

    Ok. Now I understand, although it took a bit.

    You are absolutely right as this is NOT a firearm issue, but a trespass issue. The trespass could be for a water bottle if so posted.

    Having said that, even under 4-229, it is still a trespass issue. Ironically, an establishment that serves alcohol can simply bypass 4-229 and post a gunbuster sign at the entrance(s) and accomplish the same thing. It is WE, the firearm owner who MUST abide by 4-229 if entering an unposted establishment that serves alcohol.

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varmiter View Post
    Fred,

    Ok. Now I understand, although it took a bit.

    You are absolutely right as this is NOT a firearm issue, but a trespass issue. The trespass could be for a water bottle if so posted.

    Having said that, even under 4-229, it is still a trespass issue. Ironically, an establishment that serves alcohol can simply bypass 4-229 and post a gunbuster sign at the entrance(s) and accomplish the same thing. It is WE, the firearm owner who MUST abide by 4-229 if entering an unposted establishment that serves alcohol.

    Chris
    We're not talking about water bottles we're talking about GUNS. Here's the reality of the issue. You can't do whatever you feel like wherever you feel like when you're in/on someone else property... public or not while carrying a firearm. You KNOW what the law is in AZ concerning alcohol... and should also KNOW what 'No Weapons Allowed' means. THAT is the cause for trespass.


    Playing dumb don't cut it. You should check on the weapons allowance before you enter the premises. If you don't like the policy... go someplace else. If you can't abide by it... stay home. It's a very simple deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    We're not talking about water bottles we're talking about GUNS. Here's the reality of the issue. You can't do whatever you feel like wherever you feel like when you're in/on someone else property... public or not while carrying a firearm. You KNOW what the law is in AZ concerning alcohol... and should also KNOW what 'No Weapons Allowed' means. THAT is the cause for trespass.


    Playing dumb don't cut it. You should check on the weapons allowance before you enter the premises. If you don't like the policy... go someplace else. If you can't abide by it... stay home. It's a very simple deal.

    Senora Rebel,

    You are right. We ARE talking about guns. However, AZ law makes absolutely no differentiation between ‘water bottles’ and ‘guns’ or anything else for that matter. If it is posted, for whatever reason, that reason is valid unless it involves race, religion, origin et al. Trespass is trespass. And that posting, for whatever reason, carries the full weight of the law.

    The problem, if one sees a sign prohibiting water bottles we think nothing of it, but we get upset if that sign prohibits guns. In law, there is no difference between the two regarding trespass.

    While AZ has Constitutional Carry along with the ease of obtaining a permit if one wishes, the trespass laws carry the full weight of the law. The history of this goes way back to the cattle rustling days when trespassers would be shot.

    Although not on the books now (that I can find), when I was growing up in AZ, it was against the law to have either a running iron or wire cutters on your person.

    Chris

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varmiter View Post
    Senora Rebel,

    You are right. We ARE talking about guns. However, AZ law makes absolutely no differentiation between ‘water bottles’ and ‘guns’ or anything else for that matter. If it is posted, for whatever reason, that reason is valid unless it involves race, religion, origin et al. Trespass is trespass. And that posting, for whatever reason, carries the full weight of the law.

    The problem, if one sees a sign prohibiting water bottles we think nothing of it, but we get upset if that sign prohibits guns. In law, there is no difference between the two regarding trespass.

    While AZ has Constitutional Carry along with the ease of obtaining a permit if one wishes, the trespass laws carry the full weight of the law. The history of this goes way back to the cattle rustling days when trespassers would be shot.

    Although not on the books now (that I can find), when I was growing up in AZ, it was against the law to have either a running iron or wire cutters on your person.

    Chris
    Prior to 1994 (and the permit) I carried guns in AZ w/o having to much think about not being able to. Oh... there were some bothersome laws and onerous Judges and an anti-gun media, but for the most part nobody bothered you as long as you behaved.

    I've tipped a few in the Congress hotel bar with a .45 on my hip in a crowd. I've rolled my gun belt and handed it to the barmaid in many places... . including the Gadsden. I've also handed the barkeep a .30-30 on occasion, not wanting to leave it in the saddle scabbard unttended. . 'Last 5-6-years or so... not so much, altho you can still do it some places in Yuma. People forget 'how it was'.

    'Running irons and wire cutters are still illegal in Texas.

    I just got my replacement permit... 'still carries the wording "... granted the privlege of carrying a concealed weapon..." It's not a privlege, it's a right.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    I just got my replacement permit... 'still carries the wording "... granted the privlege of carrying a concealed weapon..." It's not a privlege, it's a right.
    We haven't forgotten that you raised the issue at the annual meeting. It's still on our "need to do" list but DPS doesn't consider us bosom buddies at the present time.

    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 10-16-2012 at 04:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    We haven't forgotten that you raised the issue at the annual meeting. It's still on our "need to do" list but DPS doesn't consider us bosom buddies at the present time.

    Fred
    I really wanted to make the meeting but I got sick. I hear it went well. Why is AZCDL not bosom buddies with DPS?

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8gunz View Post
    Why is AZCDL not bosom buddies with DPS?
    The AzCDL-requested statutory reforms to the CCW process that make it more accessbile for citizens to obtain a permit, and eventually led to Constitutional Carry, weren't warmly received by those who controlled the process for over a decade. It's human nature - change can be difficult to accept.

    To get an overview of the changes in the Arizona CCW process go to our Accomplishments page and scroll down to "Concealed Weapons (CCW) Permits."

    Fred

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