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Thread: The unintended consequences of remaining silent

  1. #1
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    The unintended consequences of remaining silent

    this is an article by Marty Hayes, JD Founder of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network.

    This is an essay regarding how to respond in terms of communicating with the police following a DGU (defensive gun use)

    http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...ces-of-silence

    now most everyone seems to have seen the video with this really annoying professor saying never talk to the cops under any circumstances.... this is a long video, if you've already seen it keep reading past it



    Well following his advice if you acted in self-defense can get you accomodations of the state for 20 to life under certain circumstances.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    OCDO member User, a practicing criminal defense attorney, puts on a legal seminar in which he explains that the trade-off of spending a day or so in jail (despite everything bad about that) is well worth it in comparison to spending the next 20 years to life in prison.

    History bears out that even the most rightous shooter is likely to say at least one thing that both can and will be turned to become the one thing that sealed their conviction.

    Unless you can practice saying "My name is <> and I live at <>. That person (the one with holes in them and possibly already dead) attacked me with that <weapon>. I believed s/he was going to kill me if I did nothing to stop them. Those people saw what happened. I feel sick and want to be seen by a doctor. I am willing to talk with you but will wait until my attorney gets here to do so." - and nothing else, all while your heart is beating fast enough to qualify as V-tach (a deadly condition) and your mind is desparately trying to process and make sense out of what just happened, let alone what is going to happen, all to the point of being 100% sure you can stick to the script and not ad lib, and do it consistently and on demand, then you are most likely safer off ****-ing except to say you want to talk with your attorney, not some conveniently handy court-appointed one.

    Since shooting someone is going to cost a lot of dollars, I'd rather spend them with the best chance of not winding up going to prison because of some "little" thing I might have said that can be interpreted at least two ways and will be interpreted the way that is most detrimental to me freedom. A night or three in jail sucks, but 20 years to life in prison sucks even more.

    But as any good attorney (yes, there are some out there) will tell you, all they can do is tell you what the law says, what the courts have decided that means, and point out any possible penalties you might be facing. They can suggest a few ways to try and present your case such that you might not end up locked up, or at least only be locked up for the least possible time. After all that it is your responsibility to decide what to do - **** or try to say only things that can not/will not be used against you in a court of law.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    2009 was a very long time ago.

    Focusing on the street and not in the home is disingenuous in my view. How many self-defense shootings occur outside the home vs. inside the home?

    Don't talk to the cops.

    My shark told me to say "that person there" attacked me and I don't go syllable beyond that, other than "call my shark."
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    The unintended consequences of remaining silent

    A few things that bother me about that article:

    The author is NOT a lawyer, yet he bemoans non-lawyers giving out legal advice, while giving out some himself. That he includes a disclaimer does not make what he is saying any less reprehensible than non-lawyers giving advice on a message board. The gentleman in the video IS a lawyer giving legal advice. To whom do you think we should listen?

    I do not need to tell the police what happened to get them looking for evidence of self-defense. I only need to tell him that I feared for my life. I don't even need to tell him that I shot the perp. They'll be able to figure that out for themselves. I can also mention the weapon (if any) that I feared. That should get them looking for it while, again, I have not said anything about what I did.

    I can say nothing in the 911 call without sounding dumb as in the article: "Please send the police and an ambulance to _______. There has been a shooting and a person is hurt." I will make sure the dispatcher has those pieces of information and only those pieces.

    What the witnesses say will not change simply because I provided no details as to what exactly happened. As long as I mentioned that I feared for my life, the police will either adjust their interviews to include questions about what prompted me to shoot or they would not have asked those questions anyway because they are lousy investigators. The point is that providing details of what happened will not essentially alter witness statements.

    Anyway, I said all of the above, not as legal advice, but as support for what I will do. I will make the 911 call above. Then I will say to the police even less than skid would, not because his words would be ineffective or dangerous. It is just more than I will remember when I have more adrenaline in my veins than I have blood. I will say: "I feared for my life. He had a [insert weapon here]. Look, there it is." I will say nothing about what he did. I will say nothing about what I did. I will gladly provide my CPL to the officers for identification. For some reason, that piece of paper also seems to soothe the men in blue, so showing it will only have a positive effect. Lastly, at the appropriate moment, I will tell the officer that more details will be forthcoming once I have consulted an attorney.

    Remember, the person who wrote the cited article is not a practicing attorney. Because he mentions that he would become a lawyer if he deigns to take the bar, I assume he has been to law school. However, I wonder why he does not mention having been to law school. The person who made the cited video IS a practicing CRIMINAL attorney. He knows whereof he speaks.

    Again, this post is not legal advice. It presents what I will do and my reasoning behind it. I encourage all users to do their own research and to speak with attorneys (actual practicing attorneys) before deciding what they will do in the immediate minutes following their having defended themselves with a firearm. And that is all you really need to decide: what to do before discussing further actions with an attorney (again, an actual practicing attorney).


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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Marty Hayes is the president of the Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, LLC, holds a Juris Doctor degree and is a former police officer. In addition to operating a regional firearms training academy, working as a court-recognized expert witness keeps him busy.

    After spending years as a police officer, competitive shooter and police firearms instructor,

    Director Marty Hayes' credentials to teach firearms, self-defense and use of force include certification through the Washington State Criminal Justice Commission as a police firearms instructor, certification through Monadnock PR-24 Training Council as a PR-24 and defensive tactics instructor, certification through National Law Enforcement Training Center as a weapons retention, knife/counter knife, pepper spray and handcuffing instructor, Taser instructor certification

    DISCLAIMER: The following educational essay, written by Marty Hayes is not legal advice. It is, however, the beliefs and thoughts of the President of The Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, LLC regarding one facet of an armed encounter. Before instituting any plan of action for yourself, discuss your concerns with an attorney licensed to practice law in your state. Print out this article and give it to your attorney before this discussion, and together, come to a logical conclusion as to what course of action to take after he or she has had an opportunity to read this article.

    http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...-remain-silent

    Strangely, this sounds a lot like a child predator telling a class of second graders to trust the stranger in the van.

    I try to remember that the OP isn't old enough to engage in the activities this site supposedly supports. It's not unusual for those going through different stages of identity development to get into misguided hero worship. While it may just be a stage, I find it would be irresponsible not to point out that this information given in the OP is not the commonly held belief of those with experience and have benefited from the paid for advice of the legal profession.
    Last edited by Fuller Malarkey; 10-08-2012 at 11:43 AM.
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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    "If I were practicing law, which I could do if I wanted to take six months out of my life to study for and pass the bar," pretty much sums up his legal advice.

    edit to add: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE just watch the first 20 seconds where the LEO agrees with everything the lawyer has just said.
    Last edited by Vitaeus; 10-08-2012 at 12:04 PM. Reason: added part 2

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Read the laws of your state NOW.

    Washington has different defense laws than other states.

    AZ, from what I learned while there (could be wrong), is a shoot back state.

    MD, is a equal arms state. You come at me with a stick I can't use anything more than a stick to defend myself.

    So it varies. There is no real benefit, that I can see, you would gain from talking with the police.
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    The unintended consequences of remaining silent

    Despite the article posted by FM, again I would point out that my saying that I feared for my life is sufficient to establish that I intend to claim self-defense. As the article points out, the officers will quickly conclude that I shot the perp. My statement that I was in fear for my life tells them that I intend to claim self-defense.

    I don't care a whit if I am going to jail that night; I won't say a word about what happened until I have had the advice of counsel on the specific set of circumstances surrounding the shooting.

    As far as the 911 call goes, by all means, I will make the call. The jury will hear the concern and fear in my voice as I tell the operator that there has been a shooting and a man is hurt. If I have the slightest injury, I will mention that I am hurt too.

    Yes, I will have to waive my right not to testify, but by the time that happens, I will have been well-counseled.

    Oh, BTW, the author is flat wrong about the law in Florida (and possibly other States, IDK). But, one thing we learn from the Martin shooting is that, if one claims self-defense in Florida, the presumption is that it was self-defense. The prosecution must prove otherwise.


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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    "If I were practicing law, which I could do if I wanted to take six months out of my life to study for and pass the bar," pretty much sums up his legal advice.

    edit to add: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE just watch the first 20 seconds where the LEO agrees with everything the lawyer has just said.
    Hayes did graduate from law school however, and has years of experience on the police side of things. plenty of incompetent lawyers have passed the bar, that's not my end-all be-all.

    Note the cop also said "we don't look to put innocent people in jail" at the very end of part two.
    It seems most here have critisized the article while agreeing with it. most here have said "I was in fear for my life" is the statement they would make, that is exactly what Hayes is saying in the article, you need to give the officer just enough that they forumlate in their mind you and not the BG laying in a pool of blood is the real victim of a crime
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Read the laws of your state NOW.

    Washington has different defense laws than other states.

    AZ, from what I learned while there (could be wrong), is a shoot back state.

    MD, is a equal arms state. You come at me with a stick I can't use anything more than a stick to defend myself.

    So it varies. There is no real benefit, that I can see, you would gain from talking with the police.
    Cite please
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    If god forbid it should ever happen to me the first thing I would tell police is "I feel sick, I have a heart condition, I need an ambulance now" That will get you away from them before they can elicit any response. Do not talk to EMS about anything other than your health, same with the doctor. Tell the doctor you not wish to talk to police. This will give some time to get a grip before the police come at you again. If you are like me with a health condition, they will put you in the ICU probably for observation overnight, a hell of a lot better than jail. By that time you should have your attorney at your side for the next encounter.
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    Hey, fellas.

    1. Regarding telling the police you feel sick, what happens when somebody reports your posts here to a prosecutor after your use of lethal force? Or, the doctors figure out you weren't really sick? Then you can be painted as an unreliable liar. And, as someone who tied up essential EMS services which is probably an offense in its own right--making a false claim for EMS. I'm guessing its probably best not to lie to police or EMS for such a minor potential gain. Certainly I have read plenty of recommendations from lawyers to never lie to police. Get caught in even the tiniest lie and your bacon is fried. Look at Zimmerman. As soon as he was seen telling his wife what to do with all the donations after telling the judge he had no money, he looked like a crook.


    2. Massad Ayoob runs the Lethal Force Institute to train citizens in armed self-defense. He wrote one of the first books for citizens on the subject: In the Gravest Extreme. He was cop for an entire career, reaching the rank of captain if I recall. He also has testified as an expert witness for the defense in numerous self-defense trials. He recommends something along these lines:

    "Officer, that man there (pointing) attacked me with that knife there (pointing) making me fear for my life. I shot him in self-defense."

    "That person witnessed it."

    Point out other evidence because evidence can be overlooked: "Those are the tire rubber marks of the accomplice who raced out of here." Etc.

    We all know this is a very serious matter, and I won't make any further statement until after I have consulted with my attorney."

    Expect to be arrested.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    In my case it is documented that I have a heart condition, so it would not be a lie. Others there is no way to tell how sick they are, emotional stress can be devastating on a very healthy person. Some people become violently ill just seeing a life changing event, stress attacks can mimic heart attacks with no sign of heart problems on the EKG. Sometimes the only way to tell is with a blood test, without going through the trouble of a cath. Not only with a considerable number of people with either diabetes, or heart conditions they do not even know about. I can't imagine somebody killing someone even in self defense and not feeling sick.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Hey, fellas.

    1. Regarding telling the police you feel sick, what happens when somebody reports your posts here to a prosecutor after your use of lethal force? Or, the doctors figure out you weren't really sick? Then you can be painted as an unreliable liar. And, as someone who tied up essential EMS services which is probably an offense in its own right--making a false claim for EMS. I'm guessing its probably best not to lie to police or EMS for such a minor potential gain. Certainly I have read plenty of recommendations from lawyers to never lie to police. Get caught in even the tiniest lie and your bacon is fried. Look at Zimmerman. As soon as he was seen telling his wife what to do with all the donations after telling the judge he had no money, he looked like a crook.
    But Z lied specifically about funds. totally unrelated to his charge of murder. also Zimmerman didn't go to the hospital that night, he should have insisted seeing a doctor about the gash in his head, also if you have blood tests ran and they show you weren't under the influence of something that strengthens your defense. A DA will have a hard time proving any injuries you may have didn't happen if they're documented on a medical chart.

    There should be nothing wrong with asking to see a doctor after such a traumatic event. any competent expert will testify one will completely not feel well following a self defense shooting.

    2. Massad Ayoob runs the Lethal Force Institute to train citizens in armed self-defense. He wrote one of the first books for citizens on the subject: In the Gravest Extreme. He was cop for an entire career, reaching the rank of captain if I recall. He also has testified as an expert witness for the defense in numerous self-defense trials. He recommends something along these lines:

    "Officer, that man there (pointing) attacked me with that knife there (pointing) making me fear for my life. I shot him in self-defense."

    "That person witnessed it."

    Point out other evidence because evidence can be overlooked: "Those are the tire rubber marks of the accomplice who raced out of here." Etc.

    We all know this is a very serious matter, and I won't make any further statement until after I have consulted with my attorney."
    That's all advice I was advocating for, I also would ask to see a doctor or get checked up at a hospital. Mas Ayoob recommends that too.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    this is an article by Marty Hayes, JD Founder of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network.

    This is an essay regarding how to respond in terms of communicating with the police following a DGU (defensive gun use)

    http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...ces-of-silence

    now most everyone seems to have seen the video with this really annoying professor saying never talk to the cops under any circumstances.... this is a long video, if you've already seen it keep reading past it



    Well following his advice if you acted in self-defense can get you accomodations of the state for 20 to life under certain circumstances.
    In regards to the author of the article I would expect nothing more from a former cop.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    In regards to the author of the article I would expect nothing more from a former cop Who set up a financial risk pool to provide money to your lawyers in the event you're wrongfully charged or prosecuted for a self defense incident and who supports citizen's self defense and the right to bear arms.
    There, I corrected that for you.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Cite please
    I never looked it up but that is what was pounded into my head while I was stationed over there.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 10-08-2012 at 11:06 PM.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I never looked it up but that is what was pounded into my head while I was stationed over there.

    It appears Maryland has no statutory definition of justifiable homicide, and the right of self-defense is a common law concept. It appears a self-defense claim is audited using the "Faulkner Test" from State v. Faulkner

    which is....
    (1) The accused must have had reasonable grounds to believe himself in apparent imminent or immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm from his assailant or potential assailant;
    (2) The accused must have in fact believed himself in this danger;
    (3) The accused claiming the right of self defense must not have been the aggressor or provoked the conflict;
    (4) The force used must have not been unreasonable and excessive, that is, the force must not have been more force than the exigency demanded.


    And the jury instructions state

    Self-defense (MPJI-Cr 5:07)
    Self-defense is a defense, and the defendant must be found not guilty if all of the following three factors are present:
    1) The defendant actually believed that <he> <she> was in immediate and imminent danger of bodily harm.
    2) The defendant's belief was reasonable.
    3) The defendant used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend <himself> <herself> in light of the threatened or actual harm.
    <Deadly-force is that amount of force reasonably calculated to cause death or serious bodily harm. If the defendant is found to have used deadly-force, it must be decided whether the use of deadly-force was reasonable. Deadly-force is reasonable if the defendant actually had a reasonable belief that the aggressor's force was or would be deadly and that the defendant needed a deadly-force response.>
    <In addition, before using deadly-force, the defendant is required to make all reasonable effort to retreat. The defendant does not have to retreat if the defendant was in <his> <her> home, retreat was unsafe, the avenue of retreat was unknown to the defendant, the defendant was being robbed, the defendant was lawfully arresting the victim. If the defendant was found to have not used deadly-force, then the defendant had no duty to retreat.>


    It does not appear that there is a requirement one use only the exact class of weapon used against them
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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Read the laws of your state NOW.

    Washington has different defense laws than other states.

    AZ, from what I learned while there (could be wrong), is a shoot back state.

    MD, is a equal arms state. You come at me with a stick I can't use anything more than a stick to defend myself.

    So it varies. There is no real benefit, that I can see, you would gain from talking with the police.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I Believe Washington is a can defend with equal to or less than with state. Every state should be can defend with what ever it takes to save yourself states. If a small woman is being beat on by a large male attacker, than for the most part that woman can not use a baseball bat in defense. I also believe that it should be if a cop starts to draw down on you, you should be able to draw back, and if a cop can come up on what he thinks may be trouble down and ready then we should be able to, too. But thats, just me.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I Believe Washington is a can defend with equal to or less than with state. Every state should be can defend with what ever it takes to save yourself states. If a small woman is being beat on by a large male attacker, than for the most part that woman can not use a baseball bat in defense. I also believe that it should be if a cop starts to draw down on you, you should be able to draw back, and if a cop can come up on what he thinks may be trouble down and ready then we should be able to, too. But thats, just me.
    Why don't you try that out and get back to us.
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  21. #21
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I Believe Washington is a can defend with equal to or less than with state. Every state should be can defend with what ever it takes to save yourself states. If a small woman is being beat on by a large male attacker, than for the most part that woman can not use a baseball bat in defense. I also believe that it should be if a cop starts to draw down on you, you should be able to draw back, and if a cop can come up on what he thinks may be trouble down and ready then we should be able to, too. But thats, just me.
    actually in Washington we have teh following if a felony is at issue:

    9A.16.050
    Homicide — by other person — when justifiable.
    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.

    There is also RCWs that protect self=defense by making it expensive for the state to prosecute a case that ends up in a self-defense verdict http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.110

    We have it better than states with stand your ground laws, we have a good State Constitution and the case law to back it up.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    SNIP It does not appear that there is a requirement one use only the exact class of weapon used against them
    Which, if you think about it, makes sense.

    If somebody comes at me with a knife, I'm supposed to hunt around for a knife? What if the victim is elderly and uses a cane? Is he really supposed to try to dance against a knife and use only his own knife?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Which, if you think about it, makes sense.

    If somebody comes at me with a knife, I'm supposed to hunt around for a knife? What if the victim is elderly and uses a cane? Is he really supposed to try to dance against a knife and use only his own knife?
    We are talking about Maryland right? That whole state does not make sense.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    EMN want to be a cop maybe, so of course he wants you to talk.

    Hayes has posted in Washington Forum...didn't like my idea of not carrying or showing ID to an officer when not required to do so by law so yes he too is biased toward the Enforcers.

    Attorney suggestion to me....don't say anything to cops except I defended myself.....let your attorney point out the evidence.

    He has seen people who thought they were helping their cases harm their cases. Prosecutors and cops do and may use any apparent "inconsistency" against you. This of course isn't always the case and maybe not the norm, but do you want to chance it?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    also if you have blood tests ran and they show you weren't under the influence of something that strengthens your defense.
    Been there, done that. After an arrest, I went to the E.R. to treat police-inflicted injury. I asked the doc for a blood test because I was arrested for DUI/possession of a firearm while intoxicated, despite not having a drink in months. Doc refused to draw blood without a medical reason to do so.

    You think after shooting somebody and getting arrested for suspicion of ADW/murder, the police are going to honor your request for a blood draw?

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