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Thread: 2 LEO and a CCW instructor opinions

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    2 LEO and a CCW instructor opinions

    Well, so far in my discussions with 2 Nashville Metro LEO's and a firearms instructor the consensus among them is " We don't like open carry". All the usual reasons but especially the "it makes people nervous". That hasn't been my experience at all so it's strange to hear the statements. I would think there would be more support but it doesn't bother me or change my mind. I'll carry how I want. Oh well.....

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    It should be against the law for an on-duty LEO to give an opinion.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Cops tend to live in a somewhat insular world, they have cop friends, their 'cops only' forums or sub-forums on some message boards, and cop bars. They tend to work with (well, arrest is a more descriptive word) people who are usually dangerous and often armed. When the pack gets together and talks about 'how work was' it will tend to reinforce the actions of the pack members, that's just how life works; you support your own.

    Cops get to see dangerous people carrying and using weapons against cops---
    Cops get to see people carrying dangerous weapons ---
    Cops see you carrying a weapon.
    Cops see you as dangerous because that's what the usual result is when they see someone-not-a-cop with a weapon.

    If, when you chatted with friends they all regaled you with tale after tale of almost daily encounters of being lit up by blue lights and pulled over by the cops, and one night you happen to see blue lights coming up fast behind you, it's not illogical to assume that those blue lights are for you. Of course, the officer really just wants you to get out of the way so he can respond to a bank robbery just up the road, but that's not what the tales you've been told have been about.


    I hate to say it, but from personal experience the people that are most afraid of me being armed are themselves usually armed as well....... and wearing shiny badges. I've never encountered someone running away in fear at the sight of me being armed.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-09-2012 at 10:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whamonkey View Post
    Well, so far in my discussions with 2 Nashville Metro LEO's and a firearms instructor the consensus among them is " We don't like open carry". All the usual reasons but especially the "it makes people nervous". That hasn't been my experience at all so it's strange to hear the statements. I would think there would be more support but it doesn't bother me or change my mind. I'll carry how I want. Oh well.....

    I have an opinion too, and it is worth more than theirs to me because it is mine. What they like or dislike is irrelevant, the law is the law.

    Hey I don’t like bananas but you do not see me going around telling people how and where they can eat or transport one.

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    One of the comments made was "Am I prepared for the psychological damage if I take someone's life, could I live with it?" to which I replied, "I would rather live with that than live with the fact that had I been armed I might have been able to protect myself or my loved ones." I'm sure the victims of Virginia Tech live with the what-ifs daily.

    I agree...doesn't matter to me what the officers think, it matters what the law is. I don't mean to shove my rights in their face, I exercise them freely and without provocation. It shouldn't be a big deal.

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    I CC for tactical reasons. I don't want the bad guy to know ahead of time to plan on me the victim having a gun - I imagine they'll come at me a lot harder if they know I'm carrying. I know that's what I would do. I also wouldn't want to be viewed by the bad guy as the one thing in his way while he's trying to commit a crime. I don't want a bad guy to know I'm carrying until he feels bullets in his chest.

    The general public doesn't know what I have in my pockets, so why do they need to see my carry weapon. And cops don't need to know either - it's none of their damn business, and I have no interest in making it their business via "guy with a gun" calls on me. I don't have time for dumb **** like that.
    Last edited by ScottE; 10-09-2012 at 10:43 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    I CC for tactical reasons. I don't want the bad guy to know ahead of time to plan on me the victim having a gun - I imagine they'll come at me a lot harder if they know I'm carrying. I know that's what I would do. I also wouldn't want to be viewed by the bad guy as the one thing in his way while he's trying to commit a crime. I don't want a bad guy to know I'm carrying until he feels bullets in his chest.

    The general public doesn't know what I have in my pockets, so why do they need to see my carry weapon. And cops don't need to know either - it's none of their damn business, and I have no interest in making it their business via "guy with a gun" calls on me. I don't have time for dumb **** like that.
    You could have just said: "I'm new here and haven't done any research on OC or its statistics in real life."

    It wouldn't take up two paragraphs and would say the same thing.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    You could have just said: "I'm new here and haven't done any research on OC or its statistics in real life."

    It wouldn't take up two paragraphs and would say the same thing.
    I'd be lying then if I said that, because I have done some research. Do you have some stats to share?

    But regardless of stats, I really don't want to gamble with my life and hope the stats are on my side. This isn't a game. You lose, you die.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    I'd be lying then if I said that, because I have done some research. Do you have some stats to share?
    But regardless of stats, I really don't want to gamble with my life and hope the stats are on my side. This isn't a game. You lose, you die.
    Not making a play based on statistical analysis of probability is not what most statisticians recommend.
    If you knew that 99.7% of home games were won by the team wearing red on their uniforms, and you said, "I don't care about statistics, I'm rooting for the guys wearing blue" then umm... .. err... what's the polite word to describe someone like that?

    Life is Much Too Serious Not to consider what is statistically probable.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-09-2012 at 11:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Not making a play based on statistical analysis of probability is not what most statisticians recommend.
    If you knew that 99.7% of home games were won by the team wearing red on their uniforms, and you said, "I don't care about statistics, I'm rooting for the guys wearing blue" then umm... .. err... what's the polite word to describe someone like that?

    Life is Much Too Serious Not to consider what is statistically probable.
    If I knew that 99.7% of people that never wear seat belts have never died in a car accident, does that mean I'd not wear one? I'm not taking that chance with my life and possibly be in that .3% that do die.

    I am still interested in those stats if someone has any.

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    Campaign Veteran ATM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    I CC for tactical reasons. I don't want the bad guy to know ahead of time to plan on me the victim having a gun - I imagine they'll come at me a lot harder if they know I'm carrying. I know that's what I would do. I also wouldn't want to be viewed by the bad guy as the one thing in his way while he's trying to commit a crime. I don't want a bad guy to know I'm carrying until he feels bullets in his chest.

    The general public doesn't know what I have in my pockets, so why do they need to see my carry weapon. And cops don't need to know either - it's none of their damn business, and I have no interest in making it their business via "guy with a gun" calls on me. I don't have time for dumb **** like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    I'd be lying then if I said that, because I have done some research. Do you have some stats to share?

    But regardless of stats, I really don't want to gamble with my life and hope the stats are on my side. This isn't a game. You lose, you die.
    I'd hate to see the depth of your "research" as you seem to have simply adopted the most popular myths of criminal victim selection based upon your own imagination and common Hollywood movie scripting.

    The fantasy of "surprising" a criminal with bullets in his chest, rather than simply being avoided in the first place, while slightly disturbing, is very popular among those who haven't yet developed their personal defense mindset beyond carrying a gun to shoot at bad guys.

    These are the reasons your posts point to being new. Become a student of reality and you may find that there are rational reasons you've previously not even considered which may serve to stack the most probable odds in your own favor.

    Even if you don't come to the same conclusions on carrying openly, you will discover far more realistic reasons to support your preference to conceal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATM View Post
    I'd hate to see the depth of your "research" as you seem to have simply adopted the most popular myths of criminal victim selection based upon your own imagination and common Hollywood movie scripting.

    The fantasy of "surprising" a criminal with bullets in his chest, rather than simply being avoided in the first place, while slightly disturbing, is very popular among those who haven't yet developed their personal defense mindset beyond carrying a gun to shoot at bad guys.

    These are the reasons your posts point to being new. Become a student of reality and you may find that there are rational reasons you've previously not even considered which may serve to stack the most probable odds in your own favor.

    Even if you don't come to the same conclusions on carrying openly, you will discover far more realistic reasons to support your preference to conceal.
    Way to put spin on my words. Obviously avoiding a situation would be the first step. You missed the point.

    I am still waiting for some of these stats though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whamonkey View Post
    Well, so far in my discussions with 2 Nashville Metro LEO's and a firearms instructor the consensus among them is " We don't like open carry". All the usual reasons but especially the "it makes people nervous". That hasn't been my experience at all so it's strange to hear the statements. I would think there would be more support but it doesn't bother me or change my mind. I'll carry how I want. Oh well.....
    Yeah, my HCP instructor made this comment to the class (may be slightly paraphrased): "Yes, open carry is legal. But, I don't recommend it. The people I see open carrying think they're John Wayne with a big iron on their hip. Carry concealed, folks." Like I said, that may be slightly paraphrased. But, I do specifically recall him using the words "John Wayne" and "big iron on their hip."
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascar24Glock View Post
    Yeah, my HCP instructor made this comment to the class (may be slightly paraphrased): "Yes, open carry is legal. But, I don't recommend it. The people I see open carrying think they're John Wayne with a big iron on their hip. Carry concealed, folks." Like I said, that may be slightly paraphrased. But, I do specifically recall him using the words "John Wayne" and "big iron on their hip."
    I think most instructors are just trying to do the right thing and make their student's carry experience a positive one. As for the John Wayne thing, not sure if I'd say that, but there is a noticable difference in mindset between the OC avocates and those that practice responsible CC. Most CC people carry for only one reason - personal defense. Whereas as many OC avocates also have an interest in preserving OC, promoting OC, educating the public and LEOs on OC, etc.

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    2 LEO and a CCW instructor opinions

    Lets not lose sight of the fact that one o the reasons to OC is to "normalize" armed citizens. We can OC and go about our daily business without appearing as a nut job. Statistics are fine but arguing amongst ourselves isn't accomplishing anything. If you CC, great. I you OC, great. This thread was not to establish a springboard for another debate, it was to relate some experiences I had. Good day!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    I CC for tactical reasons. I don't want the bad guy to know ahead of time to plan on me the victim having a gun - I imagine they'll come at me a lot harder if they know I'm carrying. I know that's what I would do. I also wouldn't want to be viewed by the bad guy as the one thing in his way while he's trying to commit a crime. I don't want a bad guy to know I'm carrying until he feels bullets in his chest.

    The general public doesn't know what I have in my pockets, so why do they need to see my carry weapon. And cops don't need to know either - it's none of their damn business, and I have no interest in making it their business via "guy with a gun" calls on me. I don't have time for dumb **** like that.
    There are no tactical reasons for LAC to CC.

    We also do not use deadly force just because someone is a BG.

    This is an OC forum. CC only attitudes are not received well here, especially those that spread disinformation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    I'd be lying then if I said that, because I have done some research. Do you have some stats to share?

    But regardless of stats, I really don't want to gamble with my life and hope the stats are on my side. This isn't a game. You lose, you die.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    If I knew that 99.7% of people that never wear seat belts have never died in a car accident, does that mean I'd not wear one? I'm not taking that chance with my life and possibly be in that .3% that do die.

    I am still interested in those stats if someone has any.
    Normally the weight of providing stats/cites is on the one making the claim - except when the data is either so well known as to be accepted or when such has been repeatedly and thoroughly debunked.

    In this case, I will reverse the rule and request cite(s) from you. You are making it your primary occupation promoting the perils of OCing - that an OCer will either be taken out or have his gun snatched by a BG.

    Repeating what you have been told elsewhere: this is an OC site and we deal in facts, not baseless, unsubstantiated opinions. There are other remedies for such conduct.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    2 LEO and a CCW instructor opinions

    A side note, just as the decision to carry a weapon or not is based on each one's personality, the decision to OC or not is also based on your personal preference. I mean to say, if you are not comfortable with people seeing your weapon then by all means conceal it. I would rather have that then advise you to do something which makes you nervous. Uptight people never advance any cause, they hinder it.

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    I do both OC and CC, I try to OC as much as possiable but there are times I CC for certain situations or if it is very very cold out. That being said I disagree with the if you are OCing you loose a tactical advantage.

    I have had personal experience where my OCing has prevented a crime.

    I was at a gas station on Federal Way in Boise Idaho (used to be albertsons but recently changed to sinclair) and stopped to get gas. A shady looking guy was hanging around the pumps and started to come towards me, as I turned my strong side towards him he noticed my weapon and turned around and went the other way. I had a wierd feeling he was going to do something stupid, I drove off and went home. Later that night watching the news a guy at the same gas station 10 minutes after my encounter was taken at knife point while getting gas and forced to drive the guy to a remote area were he was robbed. Lucky the guy wasn't killed.

    If I was CCing the guy would have likely pulled a knife on my and I would have had to respond to the threat. But due to OCing the threat never materialized for me anyway. To bad the next guy didn't take his safety as seriously.

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    I can't really speak to Tennessee laws, but case law in the State of Alabama states that OC is defensive in nature and describes CC as an "evil practice" with the implication that it (CC) is offensive in nature.

    Reid vs State, 1840, Alabama Supreme Court.

    From my experiences open carrying, I will attest to its deterrent value. Had some of the characters who turned and went the other way not seen that I was carrying, the likelihood is that I would have been forced into the use of deadly force.

    On the business of OC making you a target for the BG; the criminal does not want to attack a target capable of defending itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    Way to put spin on my words. Obviously avoiding a situation would be the first step. You missed the point.

    I am still waiting for some of these stats though.
    I asked for a cite from YOU in another thread, I am still waiting! You have been asked and yet you STILL do not relinquish the source of your ridicules assumptions. You should step up before being trollish with others.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    I can't really speak to Tennessee laws, but case law in the State of Alabama states that OC is defensive in nature and describes CC as an "evil practice" with the implication that it (CC) is offensive in nature.

    Reid vs State, 1840, Alabama Supreme Court.

    From my experiences open carrying, I will attest to its deterrent value. Had some of the characters who turned and went the other way not seen that I was carrying, the likelihood is that I would have been forced into the use of deadly force.

    On the business of OC making you a target for the BG; the criminal does not want to attack a target capable of defending itself.
    Back then, they had a more honest, less "politically correct" way of looking at things. I think in our hearts and minds, we know the truth of it; concealment has always been looked at as stealthy, less honest, an action borne of fear. Honest men do not need to hide, nor to hide their actions.
    This is America, you don't need to hide your crucifix, you don't need to hide your yarmulke, wear them openly. Kiss your girl on the lips or your guy on the cheek, I couldn't care less. Wear your favorite sports team's jersey (Unless it's that rotten Mancheater-United, that is.)

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    Concur

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There are no tactical reasons for LAC to CC.

    We also do not use deadly force just because someone is a BG.

    This is an OC forum. CC only attitudes are not received well here, especially those that spread disinformation.
    I agree- I can't think of anything tactical about CC. Although I can only CC here in FL, I would love to be able to OC. There has been a lot of "people OC for self defense" comments here and that's true. But OC is also a deterrent as well- for the person OC'ing and the people around him/her.

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    Carrying doesn't make people nervous ... after all, I cannot control someone's emotions.

    Its most likely that government rhetoric has more of an effect on people's emotions than my actions.

    And the gov't wants to be the only ones who can carry. So the more evil it makes people who carry seem to be the more people may produce their own feelings of fear.

    In the IL Moore v. Madigan case, the state used words like "terrified" just to try to scare the judge...the judge bought none of the fear-mongering.

    Why don't you hear state employees talking repeatedly on the positive and safety aspects of open/conceal carry? Because they don't want us to carry and they want people to feel afraid (like the goc't can protect you, HA!).

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    http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/te...a0a2b26ba.html

    granted it is one story after a very short search.....but i dont want to be that one. Of course open carry can often get you to your gun faster than being obstructed by clothing. I prefer concealed carry myself because i do not want the extra attention but i fully respect open carry.

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