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Thread: Fire threat stops target practice, not hunting

  1. #1
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Fire threat stops target practice, not hunting

    KIMA did a story on LT Murray Wildlife Area and interviewed a member of the Department of Fish and Wildlife but it appears they both cited the law incorrectly.
    http://www.kimatv.com/home/video/Fir...172389911.html
    I contacted the Director's Office of WDFW which forwarded to the Enforcement Division and received a reply back today.

    From: Preuss, Lori (DFW)
    Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 8:50 AM
    To: DFW DL Enforcement Program
    Subject: Emergency rule ban to prevent wildfires

    Hello. Please see the attached emergency rule designed to prevent wildfires on WDFW lands. It bans several types of activities.

    Lori Preuss, WSBA #33045
    WDFW Criminal Justice Liaison &
    Administrative Regulations Coordinator
    Lori.preuss@dfw.wa.gov
    see attached file.

    My response back was

    According to this new WAC the target practice is still allowed in designated areas of LT Murray Reserve.

    WAC 232-13-13000A Firearms and target practicing
    (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of WAC 232-13-130, effective immediately until further
    notice, it is unlawful on wildlife areas and access sites owned or controlled by the
    department of fish and wildlife to discharge firearms for purposes of target practicing,
    except in designated target-shooting areas.

    (2) A violation of this section is an infraction punished under RCW 77.15.160(4)(b).

    Thus with the exception it is still legal to shooting in designated areas though the Fish and Wildlife Officer stated no target shooting.
    I have contacted local news agency and request they retract their earlier story.

    Though there other new rules would be of importance of not getting out to the public such as Fires and Campfires, Smoking, Chainsaws and other power equipment, welding or other torch devices, motor vehicles off road ways all prohibited during these emergency designated time.

    From my understanding the fires that were created as normally in Washington State are more related to Lighting Strikes not campfires, motor vehicles, smoking and so on but they only picked Firearms as the only new rule WDFW have created under an emergency law so no comment period for the public was given.
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    While target shooting is allowed on DNR managed lands, just what areas are "Designated" as target shooting areas? Unless there's a formal designation, those various pits and clear cuts where people customarily target shoot, they aren't officially recognized. Yes, they can shut down shooting and be well within the law.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    While target shooting is allowed on DNR managed lands, just what areas are "Designated" as target shooting areas? Unless there's a formal designation, those various pits and clear cuts where people customarily target shoot, they aren't officially recognized. Yes, they can shut down shooting and be well within the law.
    Very true there will be many areas often used or used once in awhile will be effected by this new rule by DFW, though in the area of L.T. Murray/Wenas Wildlife Area is an established area with concrete shooting stands and posted as a shooting area for as long as I can remember I believe this will fall into this exemption.
    Careful on adding or removing wording to any rule or law (formal or official) as it says "except in designated target-shooting areas".
    While other areas as you suggest fall into this restriction.

    WAC 232-13-13000A Firearms and target practicing
    (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of WAC 232-13-130, effective immediately until further
    notice, it is unlawful on wildlife areas and access sites owned or controlled by the
    department of fish and wildlife to discharge firearms for purposes of target practicing,
    except in designated target-shooting areas.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  4. #4
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Very true there will be many areas often used or used once in awhile will be effected by this new rule by DFW, though in the area of L.T. Murray/Wenas Wildlife Area is an established area with concrete shooting stands and posted as a shooting area for as long as I can remember I believe this will fall into this exemption.
    Careful on adding or removing wording to any rule or law (formal or official) as it says "except in designated target-shooting areas".
    While other areas as you suggest fall into this restriction.

    WAC 232-13-13000A Firearms and target practicing
    (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of WAC 232-13-130, effective immediately until further
    notice, it is unlawful on wildlife areas and access sites owned or controlled by the
    department of fish and wildlife to discharge firearms for purposes of target practicing,
    except in designated target-shooting areas.
    Hej Dave!

    While I agree with you, the Entiat fire is only going to add fuel to their argument. Personally, I voluntarily stopped shooting on my property when the chainsaw restriction went into effect in late Aug....we need rain. Up here where I live we have not had ANY raid in almost 90 days now (July 15th was the last measurable rain) Omak had .01", but we had none.

    You are absolutely correct though, almost all of the big fires we have are caused by lightning, or are intentially set. Very few are accidental, and even fewer are accidentally caused by target practice.

    One other thing they don't account for is atv/utv operation that is not gas powered. My Polaris UTV will never start a fire, it can't, it's electric.

  5. #5
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Hej Dave!

    While I agree with you, the Entiat fire is only going to add fuel to their argument. Personally, I voluntarily stopped shooting on my property when the chainsaw restriction went into effect in late Aug....we need rain. Up here where I live we have not had ANY raid in almost 90 days now (July 15th was the last measurable rain) Omak had .01", but we had none.

    You are absolutely correct though, almost all of the big fires we have are caused by lightning, or are intentially set. Very few are accidental, and even fewer are accidentally caused by target practice.

    One other thing they don't account for is atv/utv operation that is not gas powered. My Polaris UTV will never start a fire, it can't, it's electric.
    • What concerns me on the issue is that there is;
    • no expiration date
    • there no public comment period when in June 2012 they put in place a time restriction and now they claim their lack of public comment is do to a public emergency when they were well aware in advance their position.
    • Has there ever been a fire caused by target practice with out an incendiary type ammunition? Even Myth Busters put on a 007 myth of blowing up a propane tank with a round, they even used a tracer ground and could not do it until they used an explosive.
    • They have posted signs as to no target shooting but with out the exception being posted but citing the WAC 232-13-13000A Firearms and target practicing which of course has the exception.


    They have also crime scene tapped off the road to the target shooting area just to deny access.

    I am still awaiting another reply from DFW and then likely getting a hold of my State Rep to see if he can move ahead with correcting the issue.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  6. #6
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    • What concerns me on the issue is that there is;
    • no expiration date
    • there no public comment period when in June 2012 they put in place a time restriction and now they claim their lack of public comment is do to a public emergency when they were well aware in advance their position.
    • Has there ever been a fire caused by target practice with out an incendiary type ammunition? Even Myth Busters put on a 007 myth of blowing up a propane tank with a round, they even used a tracer ground and could not do it until they used an explosive.
    • They have posted signs as to no target shooting but with out the exception being posted but citing the WAC 232-13-13000A Firearms and target practicing which of course has the exception.


    They have also crime scene tapped off the road to the target shooting area just to deny access.

    I am still awaiting another reply from DFW and then likely getting a hold of my State Rep to see if he can move ahead with correcting the issue.


    You make me want to go check out the DNR range off hwy 7 up by Oroville to see if it is closed too. It is a real range (free) but on DNR land not F&W land. I know the Tonasket range is open, but it is a private club.

  7. #7
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    You make me want to go check out the DNR range off hwy 7 up by Oroville to see if it is closed too. It is a real range (free) but on DNR land not F&W land. I know the Tonasket range is open, but it is a private club.
    Well it might be a good idea as this is not a Yakima County only issue.
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    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    • What concerns me on the issue is that there is;
    • no expiration date
    • there no public comment period when in June 2012 they put in place a time restriction and now they claim their lack of public comment is do to a public emergency when they were well aware in advance their position.
    • Has there ever been a fire caused by target practice with out an incendiary type ammunition? Even Myth Busters put on a 007 myth of blowing up a propane tank with a round, they even used a tracer ground and could not do it until they used an explosive.
    • They have posted signs as to no target shooting but with out the exception being posted but citing the WAC 232-13-13000A Firearms and target practicing which of course has the exception.


    They have also crime scene tapped off the road to the target shooting area just to deny access.

    I am still awaiting another reply from DFW and then likely getting a hold of my State Rep to see if he can move ahead with correcting the issue.
    My first tour in Iraq we tried to blow up several propane tanks by shooting them. It didn't work. We used everything from M9's to an M2. We were so disapointed.
    Only fires I've seen on the range came from incendiary rounds.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    My first tour in Iraq we tried to blow up several propane tanks by shooting them. It didn't work. We used everything from M9's to an M2. We were so disapointed.
    Only fires I've seen on the range came from incendiary rounds.
    Prop a 500 Brinnel (armor plate) steel target up in a nice dry pasture. Then shoot at it for a while with some just plain M-193 ammo for a while. It will definitely set fire to grass. The grass was around a stump in a plowed field so there was no big fire but definitely a fire.

    The reason propane tanks and gas tanks are hard to ignite with regular ammo is that there is literally too much fuel. These fuels will only ignite when there is the proper ratio of fuel/air. Too much fuel, no fire. Too little, no fire. Small sparks don't cut it and thats why tracers or incendiary/explosive rounds are needed.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Prop a 500 Brinnel (armor plate) steel target up in a nice dry pasture. Then shoot at it for a while with some just plain M-193 ammo for a while. It will definitely set fire to grass. The grass was around a stump in a plowed field so there was no big fire but definitely a fire.

    The reason propane tanks and gas tanks are hard to ignite with regular ammo is that there is literally too much fuel. These fuels will only ignite when there is the proper ratio of fuel/air. Too much fuel, no fire. Too little, no fire. Small sparks don't cut it and thats why tracers or incendiary/explosive rounds are needed.
    The propane tanks never caught fire with the use of tracers or incendiary/explosive rounds, it took explosives.

    I have machined materials with a hardness number of 500 brinnel (ferrous metals) and higher and was only able to achieve sparks by using carbide with such speeds that generated enough glowing red metal to send off sparks. Never have I achieved a spark with a nonferrous metal as copper, brass or lead with many different cutting tool as high carbon tool steel, carbide which does not work well in these soft materials, to gummy.

    Take lead, copper, brass and put them to a grinding wheel and look for sparks, let me help you, you will not find any from this material upon a steel plate.

    I have spent 7 years Active Duty in the U.S. Army with thousands and thousands of rounds down range from single shots to full auto from m2 50 cal, m60 7.62mm, m16 5.56mm and several other weapons way beyond what would be considered a rifle or handgun and not available to us.
    The only fires came from tracers in of course dry grassy areas, none with out the tracers. During this time I spent one summer on the fire crew for the Yakima Firing Center, the fires created were not from small arms fire with out tracers but many with.

    Just my 250.02¢ worth, inflation!
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    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    The propane tanks never caught fire with the use of tracers or incendiary/explosive rounds, it took explosives.

    I have machined materials with a hardness number of 500 brinnel (ferrous metals) and higher and was only able to achieve sparks by using carbide with such speeds that generated enough glowing red metal to send off sparks. Never have I achieved a spark with a nonferrous metal as copper, brass or lead with many different cutting tool as high carbon tool steel, carbide which does not work well in these soft materials, to gummy.

    Take lead, copper, brass and put them to a grinding wheel and look for sparks, let me help you, you will not find any from this material upon a steel plate.

    I have spent 7 years Active Duty in the U.S. Army with thousands and thousands of rounds down range from single shots to full auto from m2 50 cal, m60 7.62mm, m16 5.56mm and several other weapons way beyond what would be considered a rifle or handgun and not available to us.
    The only fires came from tracers in of course dry grassy areas, none with out the tracers. During this time I spent one summer on the fire crew for the Yakima Firing Center, the fires created were not from small arms fire with out tracers but many with.

    Just my 250.02¢ worth, inflation!
    All good stuff but how would you explain how standard AR-15 Ammo M-193, not M855 with the steel penetrator, can light up an indoor range when the bullets strike the sides of the bullet traps??? Numerous times I have been accused of shooting steel core and they came running with the magnet.

    It's amazing what can happen when Armor Plate is hit by a jacketed bullet traveling over 3,000fps.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    All good stuff but how would you explain how standard AR-15 Ammo M-193, not M855 with the steel penetrator, can light up an indoor range when the bullets strike the sides of the bullet traps??? Numerous times I have been accused of shooting steel core and they came running with the magnet.

    It's amazing what can happen when Armor Plate is hit by a jacketed bullet traveling over 3,000fps.
    What is a spark? it is a small amount of material in this case ferrous metal being torn off and heated to near its melting point and what we see is very small shards of heated metal as one could see when applying a grinder to a ferrous metal.
    I can only speculate what is being seen in your observation has to do with a stationary steel plate at an angle in an indoor range, in the areas we are discussing here has to do with outdoor range, paper and wood targets, dirt, and some volcanic type rock under the dirt.
    There are those idiots who use tracer type ammo which is already against the rules on these lands or using some type of explosive material again against the rules and thus we end up with another restriction of feel good in nature that does nothing but appeals to those around this range who want it shut down permanently.

    Here is a video showing a 5.56 shooting a steel target, no sparks.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uREB_...feature=relmfu

    Here is a video at night time and the only sparks were muzzle flash.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=HdBjd-v7qCg
    Last edited by BigDave; 10-13-2012 at 05:22 PM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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  13. #13
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    What is a spark? it is a small amount of material in this case ferrous metal being torn off and heated to near its melting point and what we see is very small shards of heated metal as one could see when applying a grinder to a ferrous metal.
    I can only speculate what is being seen in your observation has to do with a stationary steel plate at an angle in an indoor range, in the areas we are discussing here has to do with outdoor range, paper and wood targets, dirt, and some volcanic type rock under the dirt.
    There are those idiots who use tracer type ammo which is already against the rules on these lands or using some type of explosive material again against the rules and thus we end up with another restriction of feel good in nature that does nothing but appeals to those around this range who want it shut down permanently.

    Here is a video showing a 5.56 shooting a steel target, no sparks.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uREB_...feature=relmfu

    Here is a video at night time and the only sparks were muzzle flash.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=HdBjd-v7qCg
    Please don't tell me that you've never seen sparks come from rocks being hit by bullets. Maybe on the dry side where there's lots of volcanic rock but we see a lot of granite and glacial rock from who knows were. Add to that the propensity for those who want cheap ammo for their AK's and you have steel jacketed ammo hitting rocks that will spark even if you hit them with a hammer/hatchet, or shovel.

    Anyway, it's all moot now, we've been officially rained all over on this side of the mountains.

    PS, I shot a ton of 30/06 Steel jacketed ammo left over from WWII that sparked like hell when it hit rocks. Little Brother and I went to a gravel pit across the highway from our farm and shot away just for the entertainment. Ammo then was available in bushel baskets for less than $.02/round. All steel jacketed and some was even AP with the hard cores.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Please don't tell me that you've never seen sparks come from rocks being hit by bullets. Maybe on the dry side where there's lots of volcanic rock but we see a lot of granite and glacial rock from who knows were. Add to that the propensity for those who want cheap ammo for their AK's and you have steel jacketed ammo hitting rocks that will spark even if you hit them with a hammer/hatchet, or shovel.

    Anyway, it's all moot now, we've been officially rained all over on this side of the mountains.

    PS, I shot a ton of 30/06 Steel jacketed ammo left over from WWII that sparked like hell when it hit rocks. Little Brother and I went to a gravel pit across the highway from our farm and shot away just for the entertainment. Ammo then was available in bushel baskets for less than $.02/round. All steel jacketed and some was even AP with the hard cores.
    Okay I won't tell you.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
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    Regular Member Cubex DE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Has there ever been a fire caused by target practice with out an incendiary type ammunition? Even Myth Busters put on a 007 myth of blowing up a propane tank with a round, they even used a tracer ground and could not do it until they used an explosive.
    My Army Reserve unit stripped the tracers out of a few dozen belts of .50 cal ammo just so we wouldn't start fires on the range we were at (mostly dry grass), replacing each with a normal ball round by hand. Let me tell you, unlinking and then relinking thousands of rounds of ammo seriously chews up your hands. Then we linked all the tracers together (again, by hand) into a few massive belts and fired them all at once into a dirt berm... and still managed to start a fire off a ricochet! Range Control was not happy
    Jesus thought it was more important to be armed than well dressed:

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    (Emphasis mine.)

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  16. #16
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Just for grins--

    Here's a news report from this July from areas that were dry far earlier than WA State

    Target shooting or other firearms have started at least 21 wildfires in Utah and nearly a dozen in Idaho, the Associated Press says. Gunfire has also been cited for causing wildfires in Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Washington.

    http://content.usatoday.com/communit...1#.UHq9KG-i_Ds
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  17. #17
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    They blamed gun fire on starting a handful of fires more then likely it was not determined to be by gun fire.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Prop a 500 Brinnel (armor plate) steel target up in a nice dry pasture. Then shoot at it for a while with some just plain M-193 ammo for a while. It will definitely set fire to grass. The grass was around a stump in a plowed field so there was no big fire but definitely a fire.

    The reason propane tanks and gas tanks are hard to ignite with regular ammo is that there is literally too much fuel. These fuels will only ignite when there is the proper ratio of fuel/air. Too much fuel, no fire. Too little, no fire. Small sparks don't cut it and thats why tracers or incendiary/explosive rounds are needed.
    Standard loadout on an M2 uses tracers.
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    The restrictions from WDFW are in place based on the Govenor's emergency fire restrictions.

    Let's just say everyone who hunts (yes bow hunters included) dodged a bullet because initial word was the Gov wanted to close down ALL hunting until there was significant rain. WDFW did the best with what was offered from on high and came up with some reasonable restrictions to public land use on WDFW lands during the emergency fire restrictions that allowed hunting to continue but took the riskiest possible fire starting activities and temporarily banned them.

    Restrictions are now lifting for most of the lands, though the Eastside is still really dry. I bet if you watch WDFW website closely the restrictions will lift or change today or tomorrow. DNR's already have.

  20. #20
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Jeepster the restrictions were put in place by the WDFW as an emergency rule as can be seen in the WDFW website and Washington State Register. under the WDFW rule making authority.


    http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/oct1612a/

    WDFW lifts emergency wildfire restrictions

    OLYMPIA – The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) today lifted emergency restrictions on the land it manages throughout the state, but urged anyone visiting those lands to continue using caution when doing anything that could spark a wildlfire.

    Greg Schirato, deputy director of WDFW’s wildlife program, said the department’s action in lifting the emergency restriction is consistent with those of the Governor’s Office and the Washington Department of Natural Resources, which have lifted statewide burn bans in recent days.

    “Wildfire risks are easing, particularly after the recent rains in western Washington,” Schirato said. “But it’s important that everyone remain vigilant and avoid any action that could touch off another blaze.”

    By lifting its emergency restrictions, WDFW will again allow campers, hunters and others who visit the department’s lands to build campfires, practice target shooting, use generators and operate chainsaws, Schirato said.

    Standard rules for those and other activities on WDFW lands are available on the department’s website at http://wdfw.wa.gov/lands/public_cond...les/index.html. For information about wildfire risks around the state, see http://fortress.wa.gov/dnr/firedanger/BurnRisk.aspx.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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