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Thread: I need to speak with a 2nd Amendment Lawyer

  1. #1
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    I need to speak with a 2nd Amendment Lawyer

    I was denied a concealed carry permit here in Virginia because of a Possesion of Marijuana charge well over 3 years ago. Looking at their list of disqualifications, they shall by their own law, issue me a permit. Virginia is a shall issue state. I was not given notice in writing of my right to an ore tenus hearing. They are not following their own law. The law is as follows:

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...Concealed.shtm

    If Your Application is Denied

    Any order denying issuance of the permit shall state the basis for the denial of the permit and the applicant's right to and the requirements for perfecting an appeal of such order.

    Upon denial of the application, the clerk shall provide the person with notice, in writing, of his right to an ore tenus hearing. Upon request of the applicant made within 21 days, the court shall place the matter on the docket for an ore tenus hearing. The applicant may be represented by counsel, but counsel shall not be appointed, and the rules of evidence shall apply. The final order of the court shall include the court's findings of fact and conclusions of law.

    Any person denied a permit to carry a concealed handgun may present a petition for review to the Court of Appeals. The petition for review shall be filed within 60-days of the expiration of the time for requesting an ore tenus hearing pursuant to subsection I of 18.2-308, or if an ore tenus hearing is requested, within sixty days of the entry of the final order of the circuit court following the hearing. The petition shall be accompanied by a copy of the original papers filed in the circuit court, including a copy of the order of the circuit court denying the permit. Subject to the provisions of 17.1-410 B, the decision of the Court of Appeals or judge shall be final. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if the decision to deny the permit is reversed upon appeal, taxable costs incurred by the person shall be paid by the Commonwealth.

    A Permit is Not Necessary in the Following Circumstances

    Any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.
    1.Any person while in his own place of business;
    2.Any law-enforcement officer, wherever such law-enforcement officer may travel in the Commonwealth;
    3.Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    4.Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    5.Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and a place of purchase or repair, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    6.Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions. Possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;
    7.Any retiree described in paragraph B 7 of 18.2-308.
    8.For purposes of applying the reciprocity provisions of subsection P, any person granted the privilege to carry a concealed handgun pursuant to this subdivision, while carrying the proof of consultation and favorable review required, shall be deemed to have been issued a concealed handgun permit.
    9.Any attorney for the Commonwealth or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth, wherever such attorney may travel in the Commonwealth.
    10.Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.

    Persons Not Qualified to Obtain a Permit:
    1.An individual who is ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to 18.2-308.1:1, 18.2-308.1:2 or 18.2-308.1:3 or the substantially similar law of any other state or of the United States.

    2.An individual who was ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to 18.2-308.1:1 and who was discharged from the custody of the Commissioner pursuant to 19.2-182.7 less than five years before the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.

    3.An individual who was ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to 18.2-308.1:2 and whose competency or capacity was restored pursuant to former 37.1-134.1 or 37.2-1012 less than five years before the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.

    4.An individual who was ineligible to possess a firearm under 18.2-308.1:3 and who was released from commitment less than five years before the date of this application for a concealed handgun permit.

    5.An individual who is subject to a restraining order, or to a protective order and prohibited by 18.2-308.1:4 from purchasing or transporting a firearm.

    6.An individual who is prohibited by 18.2-308.2 from possessing or transporting a firearm, except that a permit may be obtained in accordance with subsection C of that section.

    7.An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions or reckless driving shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.

    8.An individual who is addicted to, or is an unlawful user or distributor of, marijuana or any controlled substance.

    9.An individual who has been convicted of a violation of 18.2-266 or a substantially similar local ordinance, or of public drunkenness, or of a substantially similar offense under the laws of any other state, the District of Columbia, the United States, or its territories within the three-year period immediately preceding the application, or who is a habitual drunkard as determined pursuant to 4.1-33.

    10.An alien other than an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States.

    11.An individual who has been discharged from the Armed Forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.

    12.An individual who is a fugitive from justice.

    13.An individual who the court finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, based on specific acts by the applicant, is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth may submit to the court a sworn written statement indicating that, in the opinion of such sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth, based upon a disqualifying conviction or upon the specific acts set forth in the statement, the applicant is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The statement of the sheriff, chief of police, or the attorney for the Commonwealth shall be based upon personal knowledge of such individual or of a deputy sheriff, police officer, or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth of the specific acts, or upon a written statement made under oath before a notary public of a competent person having personal knowledge of the specific acts.

    14.An individual who has been convicted of any assault, assault and battery, sexual battery, discharging of a firearm in violation of 18.2-280 or 18.2-286.1 or brandishing of a firearm in violation of 18.2-282 within the three-year period immediately preceding the application.

    15.An individual who has been convicted of stalking.

    16.An individual whose previous convictions or adjudications of delinquency were based on an offense which would have been at the time of conviction a felony if committed by an adult under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, the United States or its territories. For purposes of this disqualifier, only convictions occurring within sixteen years following the later of the date of (i) the conviction or adjudication or (ii) release from any incarceration imposed upon such conviction or adjudication shall be deemed to be "previous convictions."

    17.An individual who has a felony charge pending or a charge pending for an offense listed in 14 or 15.

    18.An individual who has received mental health treatment or substance abuse treatment in a residential setting within five years prior to the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.

    19.An individual not otherwise ineligible pursuant to this section, who, within the three-year period immediately preceding the application for the permit, was found guilty of any criminal offense set forth in Article 1 ( 18.2-247 et seq.) of Chapter 7 of this title or of a criminal offense of illegal possession or distribution of marijuana or any controlled substance, under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories.

    20.An individual, not otherwise ineligible pursuant to this section, with respect to whom, within the three-year period immediately preceding the application, upon a charge of any criminal offense set forth in Article 1 ( 18.2-247 et seq.) of Chapter 7 of this title or upon a charge of illegal possession or distribution of marijuana or any controlled substance under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories, the trial court found that the facts of the case were sufficient for a finding of guilt and disposed of the case pursuant to 18.2-251 or the substantially similar law of any other state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories.

    EDIT:

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...igibility.shtm

    9.Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any controlled substance? The Federal Gun Control Act defines an addicted person, or unlawful user, as a person who has a conviction for use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year or persons found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided that the test was administered within the past year.


    I really need some help. I feel like the courts aren't following the law and they are just trying to bully me. Any help/advice is very greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by suffolk; 10-10-2012 at 03:29 PM. Reason: adding source

  2. #2
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    I got some advice...stay away from drugs. Guess it's a little too late now though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    I got some advice...stay away from drugs. Guess it's a little too late now though!
    i got some advice...stay away from this thread. People make mistakes and not one person on this planet or anywhere is perfect. This is about the violation of the law by the courts themselves, who should be upholders of the law. Unless Virginia is a may issue state now, which it isn't, then the courts are in the wrong.

    Im just trying to find a 2nd amendment lawyer in the hampton roads area, not someone who thinks they are better than the rest of the world.

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    We have several members here who may be helpful to you (they are practicing lawyers): User, VA_Litigator, ArmedBarister..... There may be others, but those 3 come immediately to mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    We have several members here who may be helpful to you (they are practicing lawyers): User, VA_Litigator, ArmedBarister..... There may be others, but those 3 come immediately to mind.
    thanks for the help. how would i contact them?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suffolk View Post
    i got some advice...stay away from this thread. People make mistakes and not one person on this planet or anywhere is perfect. This is about the violation of the law by the courts themselves, who should be upholders of the law. Unless Virginia is a may issue state now, which it isn't, then the courts are in the wrong.

    Im just trying to find a 2nd amendment lawyer in the hampton roads area, not someone who thinks they are better than the rest of the world.
    Don't be so sensitive and quick to criticize. No one was attacking you personally.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    If you weren't notified, how do you know it was for the possession charge?

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    Quote Originally Posted by suffolk View Post
    thanks for the help. how would i contact them?
    I'd look for their usernames in the Private Message space of this board. Their individual profiles likely have some separate way of contacting them.

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    It seems vague, but I think they got you with paragraph 8.
    Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    It seems vague, but I think they got you with paragraph 8.
    Normally an old conviction shouldn't trigger that though. It says "is" an unlawful... Yada yada, which to me would mean "currently at time of application" but IANAL and IANAVirginian so he should speak to an attorney
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 10-10-2012 at 03:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by suffolk View Post
    thanks for the help. how would i contact them?
    User = Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 or by PM.
    http://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    ArmedBarrister (note 2 "r"s) can be contacted by PM.


    VAlitigator (note correct spelling) can be reached per below:
    Mark D. Matthews
    http://thematthewslawgroup.com/
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If you weren't notified, how do you know it was for the possession charge?
    i was notified by mail that my permit was denied because i was convicted of possesion of marijuana. i was convicted over three years ago immediately preceding the application date. there wasn't any notice to an ore tenus hearing. it seems like they aren't following the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    It seems vague, but I think they got you with paragraph 8.
    look at my original post at the bottom, i just bolded the part where it defines paragraph 8. by that definition i am not disqualified by paragraph 8.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    It seems vague, but I think they got you with paragraph 8.
    They may have Scott, some counties still haven't gotten the message they don't have the ability to arbitrarily deny anymore....The report, which he's entitled to see, will show the exact reason for denial.

    If that's the case he can file for the hearing himself and the rules of evidence apply, which will mean the Commonwealth will have to present evidence he IS CURRENTLY a user or distributor.

    If they can't the Judge should issue the permit...

    but if they can...

    Last edited by peter nap; 10-10-2012 at 03:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Don't be so sensitive and quick to criticize. No one was attacking you personally.
    sorry, im just used to the internet forums and how people throw that out there. i know i messed up, i pay for it every single day even though ive paid my debt to society. its really hard to find a job with a pot charge, i almost feel like im being treated as a felon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    User = Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 or by PM.
    http://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    ArmedBarrister (note 2 "r"s) can be contacted by PM.


    VAlitigator (note correct spelling) can be reached per below:
    Mark D. Matthews
    http://thematthewslawgroup.com/


    thanks for the help

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    They may have Scott, some counties still haven't gotten the message they don't have the ability to arbitrarily deny anymore....The report, which he's entitled to see, will show the exact reason for denial.

    If that's the case he can file for the hearing himself and the rules of evidence apply, which will mean the Commonwealth will have to present evidence he IS CURRENTLY a user or distributor.

    If they can't the Judge should issue the permit...

    but if they can...


    if they want to prove i am currently a user would that mean making me take a drug test? if that is so then im good.

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suffolk View Post
    sorry, im just used to the internet forums and how people throw that out there. i know i messed up, i pay for it every single day even though ive paid my debt to society. its really hard to find a job with a pot charge, i almost feel like im being treated as a felon.
    I think you will find most people here much more tolerant and forgiving of past transgressions of youth.

    Good luck getting your permit application approved, but seriously why not OC? You have no disqualifiers, right?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suffolk View Post
    if they want to prove i am currently a user would that mean making me take a drug test? if that is so then im good.
    No, you're not applying for a job. They would have to present evidence that you are currently a USER or Distributor...such as witnesses that have first hand knowledge, undercover officers that have observed it, recent medical reports that show it in your system, Etc.

    I'm not a lawyer and this ain't legal advice BTW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I think you will find most people here much more tolerant and forgiving of past transgressions of youth.

    Good luck getting your permit application approved, but seriously why not OC? You have no disqualifiers, right?
    .

    im not disqualified at all. if i OC it would only be in my vehicle. the police here in suffolk aren't the most lawful if you know what i mean..

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    No, you're not applying for a job. They would have to present evidence that you are currently a USER or Distributor...such as witnesses that have first hand knowledge, undercover officers that have observed it, recent medical reports that show it in your system, Etc.

    I'm not a lawyer and this ain't legal advice BTW.

    thanks. nice disclaimer lol.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suffolk View Post
    thanks. nice disclaimer lol.
    The only thing more foolish than getting legal advice from the internet is getting it on the internet from an old Redneck that doesn't have a CHP and doesn't plan on getting one!

    Good Luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by suffolk View Post
    I was denied a concealed carry permit here in Virginia because of a Possesion of Marijuana charge well over 3 years ago. Looking at their list of disqualifications, they shall by their own law, issue me a permit. Virginia is a shall issue state. I was not given notice in writing of my right to an ore tenus hearing. They are not following their own law. The law is as follows:

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...Concealed.shtm

    If Your Application is Denied

    Any order denying issuance of the permit shall state the basis for the denial of the permit and the applicant's right to and the requirements for perfecting an appeal of such order.

    Upon denial of the application, the clerk shall provide the person with notice, in writing, of his right to an ore tenus hearing. Upon request of the applicant made within 21 days, the court shall place the matter on the docket for an ore tenus hearing. The applicant may be represented by counsel, but counsel shall not be appointed, and the rules of evidence shall apply. The final order of the court shall include the court's findings of fact and conclusions of law.

    Any person denied a permit to carry a concealed handgun may present a petition for review to the Court of Appeals. The petition for review shall be filed within 60-days of the expiration of the time for requesting an ore tenus hearing pursuant to subsection I of 18.2-308, or if an ore tenus hearing is requested, within sixty days of the entry of the final order of the circuit court following the hearing. The petition shall be accompanied by a copy of the original papers filed in the circuit court, including a copy of the order of the circuit court denying the permit. Subject to the provisions of 17.1-410 B, the decision of the Court of Appeals or judge shall be final. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if the decision to deny the permit is reversed upon appeal, taxable costs incurred by the person shall be paid by the Commonwealth.

    A Permit is Not Necessary in the Following Circumstances

    Any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.
    1.Any person while in his own place of business;
    2.Any law-enforcement officer, wherever such law-enforcement officer may travel in the Commonwealth;
    3.Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    4.Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    5.Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and a place of purchase or repair, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    6.Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions. Possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;
    7.Any retiree described in paragraph B 7 of 18.2-308.
    8.For purposes of applying the reciprocity provisions of subsection P, any person granted the privilege to carry a concealed handgun pursuant to this subdivision, while carrying the proof of consultation and favorable review required, shall be deemed to have been issued a concealed handgun permit.
    9.Any attorney for the Commonwealth or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth, wherever such attorney may travel in the Commonwealth.
    10.Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.

    Persons Not Qualified to Obtain a Permit:
    1.An individual who is ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to 18.2-308.1:1, 18.2-308.1:2 or 18.2-308.1:3 or the substantially similar law of any other state or of the United States.

    2.An individual who was ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to 18.2-308.1:1 and who was discharged from the custody of the Commissioner pursuant to 19.2-182.7 less than five years before the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.

    3.An individual who was ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to 18.2-308.1:2 and whose competency or capacity was restored pursuant to former 37.1-134.1 or 37.2-1012 less than five years before the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.

    4.An individual who was ineligible to possess a firearm under 18.2-308.1:3 and who was released from commitment less than five years before the date of this application for a concealed handgun permit.

    5.An individual who is subject to a restraining order, or to a protective order and prohibited by 18.2-308.1:4 from purchasing or transporting a firearm.

    6.An individual who is prohibited by 18.2-308.2 from possessing or transporting a firearm, except that a permit may be obtained in accordance with subsection C of that section.

    7.An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions or reckless driving shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.

    8.An individual who is addicted to, or is an unlawful user or distributor of, marijuana or any controlled substance.

    9.An individual who has been convicted of a violation of 18.2-266 or a substantially similar local ordinance, or of public drunkenness, or of a substantially similar offense under the laws of any other state, the District of Columbia, the United States, or its territories within the three-year period immediately preceding the application, or who is a habitual drunkard as determined pursuant to 4.1-33.

    10.An alien other than an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States.

    11.An individual who has been discharged from the Armed Forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.

    12.An individual who is a fugitive from justice.

    13.An individual who the court finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, based on specific acts by the applicant, is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth may submit to the court a sworn written statement indicating that, in the opinion of such sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth, based upon a disqualifying conviction or upon the specific acts set forth in the statement, the applicant is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The statement of the sheriff, chief of police, or the attorney for the Commonwealth shall be based upon personal knowledge of such individual or of a deputy sheriff, police officer, or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth of the specific acts, or upon a written statement made under oath before a notary public of a competent person having personal knowledge of the specific acts.

    14.An individual who has been convicted of any assault, assault and battery, sexual battery, discharging of a firearm in violation of 18.2-280 or 18.2-286.1 or brandishing of a firearm in violation of 18.2-282 within the three-year period immediately preceding the application.

    15.An individual who has been convicted of stalking.

    16.An individual whose previous convictions or adjudications of delinquency were based on an offense which would have been at the time of conviction a felony if committed by an adult under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, the United States or its territories. For purposes of this disqualifier, only convictions occurring within sixteen years following the later of the date of (i) the conviction or adjudication or (ii) release from any incarceration imposed upon such conviction or adjudication shall be deemed to be "previous convictions."

    17.An individual who has a felony charge pending or a charge pending for an offense listed in 14 or 15.

    18.An individual who has received mental health treatment or substance abuse treatment in a residential setting within five years prior to the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.

    19.An individual not otherwise ineligible pursuant to this section, who, within the three-year period immediately preceding the application for the permit, was found guilty of any criminal offense set forth in Article 1 ( 18.2-247 et seq.) of Chapter 7 of this title or of a criminal offense of illegal possession or distribution of marijuana or any controlled substance, under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories.

    20.An individual, not otherwise ineligible pursuant to this section, with respect to whom, within the three-year period immediately preceding the application, upon a charge of any criminal offense set forth in Article 1 ( 18.2-247 et seq.) of Chapter 7 of this title or upon a charge of illegal possession or distribution of marijuana or any controlled substance under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories, the trial court found that the facts of the case were sufficient for a finding of guilt and disposed of the case pursuant to 18.2-251 or the substantially similar law of any other state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories.

    EDIT:

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...igibility.shtm

    9.Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any controlled substance? The Federal Gun Control Act defines an addicted person, or unlawful user, as a person who has a conviction for use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year or persons found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided that the test was administered within the past year.


    I really need some help. I feel like the courts aren't following the law and they are just trying to bully me. Any help/advice is very greatly appreciated.
    Call my lawyer Richard Gardnier 17033527276 best damn lawyer I know or call Dan Hawes another great attorney.

    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Feel free to make recommendations but do not use our forum to defame people.

    You should win in an appeal
    Last edited by John Pierce; 10-10-2012 at 04:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The only thing more foolish than getting legal advice from the internet is getting it on the internet from an old Redneck that doesn't have a CHP and doesn't plan on getting one!

    Good Luck!
    thanks!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4guns View Post
    Call my lawyer Richard Gardnier 17033527276 best damn lawyer I know or call Dan Hawes another great attorney.

    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Feel free to make recommendations but do not use our forum to defame people.

    You should win in an appeal
    While I know your reasons for saying that and agree for the most part, maybe it should have been done by PM.

    Just my opinion......
    Last edited by John Pierce; 10-10-2012 at 04:26 PM.

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