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Thread: A bit of a weird question

  1. #1
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    A bit of a weird question

    So I am Male to Female transgender I OC all the time but I also CC I am going to get my gender marker changed on my drivers license this month and I was wondering if any body here knows how I would go about getting it changed on my CPL and if my CPL would be invalid if the information on it doesn't match up my DL.

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    Regular Member TheGunMan's Avatar
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    Omg

    Yep, That is a wierd question..................

  3. #3
    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Easiest bet is to contact your issuing law enforcement department and/or the Firearms Unit of DOL. The licence may be issued by the local PD, but it is overseen by DOL.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    I second the suggestion to call your local issuing officer (sheriff or town) and ask if you need to change it now, or when it expires.

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    Almost four years ago I moved in with my (now) wife, which meant I needed to go through an address change on all of my stuff. When I went in to the Chelan county sheriff's office to update my address on my CPL, I was told that I could perform the update and get a new permit if I chose (and pay the fee for a reissue), but that legally as long as I updated my drivers license information, that I could continue to use my current permit without performing an update since having my drivers license updated meant that my correct info was on file with the department of licensing. I opted to save a few bucks and wait until it expired to get a new one.

    I would imagine the same would apply here, but I agree with everyone else's suggestion; contact your local PD or Sheriff's office that would issue your permit and ask them.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    You will probably also need to show some sort of medical documentation to verify that you had a "change of equipment".
    Last edited by Sig229; 10-10-2012 at 04:50 PM.
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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Update your driver's license and that should provide the documentation of your new status. http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/genderchange.html ( I will be nice to the foggies and just post the link for the license change)

    9.41.070 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.a...=true#9.41.070 covers your CPL and there is nothing specific requiring updates based on any changes

    There is also the following RCW that would likely apply if anyone REQUIRED you to pay to update your CPL prior to the renewal in the RCW:

    RCW 49.60.030
    Freedom from discrimination declaration of civil rights.

    (1) The right to be free from discrimination because of race, creed, color, national origin, sex, honorably discharged veteran or military status, sexual orientation, or the presence of any sensory, mental, or physical disability or the use of a trained dog guide or service animal by a person with a disability is recognized as and declared to be a civil right. This right shall include, but not be limited to:

    (a) The right to obtain and hold employment without discrimination;

    (b) The right to the full enjoyment of any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities, or privileges of any place of public resort, accommodation, assemblage, or amusement;

    (c) The right to engage in real estate transactions without discrimination, including discrimination against families with children;

    (d) The right to engage in credit transactions without discrimination;

    (e) The right to engage in insurance transactions or transactions with health maintenance organizations without discrimination: PROVIDED, That a practice which is not unlawful under RCW 48.30.300, 48.44.220, or 48.46.370 does not constitute an unfair practice for the purposes of this subparagraph;

    (f) The right to engage in commerce free from any discriminatory boycotts or blacklists. Discriminatory boycotts or blacklists for purposes of this section shall be defined as the formation or execution of any express or implied agreement, understanding, policy or contractual arrangement for economic benefit between any persons which is not specifically authorized by the laws of the United States and which is required or imposed, either directly or indirectly, overtly or covertly, by a foreign government or foreign person in order to restrict, condition, prohibit, or interfere with or in order to exclude any person or persons from any business relationship on the basis of race, color, creed, religion, sex, honorably discharged veteran or military status, sexual orientation, the presence of any sensory, mental, or physical disability, or the use of a trained dog guide or service animal by a person with a disability, or national origin or lawful business relationship: PROVIDED HOWEVER, That nothing herein contained shall prohibit the use of boycotts as authorized by law pertaining to labor disputes and unfair labor practices; and

    (g) The right of a mother to breastfeed her child in any place of public resort, accommodation, assemblage, or amusement.

    (2) Any person deeming himself or herself injured by any act in violation of this chapter shall have a civil action in a court of competent jurisdiction to enjoin further violations, or to recover the actual damages sustained by the person, or both, together with the cost of suit including reasonable attorneys' fees or any other appropriate remedy authorized by this chapter or the United States Civil Rights Act of 1964 as amended, or the Federal Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988 (42 U.S.C. Sec. 3601 et seq.).

    (3) Except for any unfair practice committed by an employer against an employee or a prospective employee, or any unfair practice in a real estate transaction which is the basis for relief specified in the amendments to RCW 49.60.225 contained in chapter 69, Laws of 1993, any unfair practice prohibited by this chapter which is committed in the course of trade or commerce as defined in the Consumer Protection Act, chapter 19.86 RCW, is, for the purpose of applying that chapter, a matter affecting the public interest, is not reasonable in relation to the development and preservation of business, and is an unfair or deceptive act in trade or commerce.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    A very cursory search failed to reveal any law or regulation indicating that the selection of gender on official identification documents is in any way controlled. IF you run into any resistance I would suggest that you ask them to produce the law/regulation and in the meantime go with RCW 49.60.030.

    Also remember that the federal ADA is based on what other people perceive you to be. If the person on the street thinks you are disabled or female or Martian, then for purposes of the ADA you are disabled or female or Martian.

    There should be no need to produce medical verification of any procedure unless the law/regulation clearly requires it. The law/regulations for documenting handicapped status in order to get the device that allows you to park in the reserved slots is there to meet a very narrowly tailored purpose. Because you are seeking no special accomodation there should be no qualification test.

    In all seriousness - does your new status require that a new "Welcome to OCDO" be made if you were previously a member as a male? I'm thinking it does, so "Welcome to OCDO."

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    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samantha View Post
    So I am Male to Female transgender I OC all the time but I also CC I am going to get my gender marker changed on my drivers license this month and I was wondering if any body here knows how I would go about getting it changed on my CPL and if my CPL would be invalid if the information on it doesn't match up my DL.
    I agree that it would not invalidate your CPL; however if you are also changing your name on your driver's licence, that may change your DL# and then the two licences will not match: Giving 3 opportunities for confusion in the event that you present them both to an LEO (name, sex and DL#). While that may also not be a legal issue, I personally hate loose ends and the price of a new CPL would be worth the peace of mind to me.

    That said, there is no legal requirement to show your DL with your CPL, because there is no legal requirement to hand over your DL for anything other than a traffic stop. (No stop and ID law in Washington).
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    That said, there is no legal requirement to show your DL with your CPL, because there is no legal requirement to hand over your DL for anything other than a traffic stop. (No stop and ID law in Washington).
    True, however if she chose NOT to change her CPL to say female, then the officers may request additional supporting ID when the CPL says male, yet they are looking at a female.
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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by massivedesign View Post
    True, however if she chose NOT to change her CPL to say female, then the officers may request additional supporting ID when the CPL says male, yet they are looking at a female.
    Why, nothing in the CPL rcw mentions any further need for ID?
    How the person looks has nothing to do with the background check that was done on the individual to be certified, He may be a cross-dresser, which is not against the law or just a very unique individual. If they are citing her or arresting her, then it may be an issue since you can be asked for further ID to ensure they are citing the correct individual or during arrest to ensure that proper procedures are followed to protect the officer and the arrestee.

    The DoL has very specific procedures to update your DL/Photo ID, nothing on their site or in the RCW mentions a requirement to update a CPL.

    Having that many discrepancies may not be a good idea and worth the money to renew and update them, but that would be a personal choice, not anything required by law or regulation that I can find, please post any that you find, I actually have at least one other person that might find the information of use.

  12. #12
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    hey Samantha. welcome to OCDO. probably not the responses you were expecting, huh
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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  13. #13
    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    I have met some transgenders who have were male into female. You honestly couldn't tell that they were a male previously. While there is no RCW allowing LEO to ask for additional identification, what is a LEO supposed to do when the person in front of him is a female, yet the ID handed to them was for a male?

    I ask this because some of the transgenders I have met, I did so while working at a bar in Olympia (Olympia has a pretty "vibrant" culture). There was more than once I had to double take and question who it was I was allowing entry into a facility with an ID that really didn't match what was said. Most though, are understanding of the situation and are more than happy to help in letting the person know.

    I was just letting her know that they "may" request additional identification, for obvious reasons.

    I am really hoping that this thread doesn't get turned into another huge debate over constitutionality and LEO overstepping their grounds. Too many threads, good threads, have been over run by that type of side-topic conversation.

    I will also say, I am pretty proud of our people on here for the responses and assistance given thus far. Bravo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGunMan View Post
    Yep, That is a wierd question..................
    What he said

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Samantha,

    I have been working in Blaine lately and there are a few OC'ers up there in that area. If you are interested having an impromptu meet up let me know. We also have regular coffee at Starbucks , Bakerview by Fred Meyer's Sunday mornings at 10 am.

    I don't have much to ad to your question that hasn't been covered.

    If you want you can PM me.
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    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    You will probably also need to show some sort of medical documentation to verify that you had a "change of equipment".
    Or just be prepared to show the "current equipment".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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  17. #17
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by massivedesign View Post
    I ask this because some of the transgenders I have met, I did so while working at a bar in Olympia (Olympia has a pretty "vibrant" culture). There was more than once I had to double take and question who it was I was allowing entry into a facility with an ID that really didn't match what was said. Most though, are understanding of the situation and are more than happy to help in letting the person know.
    OK, so while working in that same bar, how would you have handled a Transvestite or "Female Impersonator"? Aren't they still the same person listed on the ID? I do believe that I'd be insisting that the picture on the license at least look like them though regardless of whether they're a "Pointer" or a "Setter".
    Last edited by amlevin; 10-11-2012 at 09:56 AM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    OK, so while working in that same bar, how would you have handled a Transvestite or "Female Impersonator"? Aren't they still the same person listed on the ID? I do believe that I'd be insisting that the picture on the license at least look like them though regardless of whether they're a "Pointer" or a "Setter".
    Most transgender people already have updated pictures names and genders it's not a very hard thing to do. Transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens usually don't try to keep their real gender a secret and will make it pretty obvious to a bouncer if there is an issue with ID. For transgender folk it's a little more complicated we live our lives that way all the time and some people hate that, it's very important for us to be able to "pass" since we are one of the most at risk groups for violent crime. They say there is something like 1 in 12 trans people are murdered compared to like 1 in 118 for cis-gendered people. I may not be required to update my CPL to reflect my new gender identity but there are cases when officers flip out when they find out someone is transgender.

    Thank you everybody for your responses they were very helpful, I know you are all good people here I've met some of you before I transitioned so I wasn't really expecting to get any kind of hate here
    Last edited by Samantha; 10-11-2012 at 02:38 PM.

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    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
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    By far the most awesome thread on this site in some time.

    Welcome to or back to OCDO, what ever the case may be.

  20. #20
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samantha View Post
    I may not be required to update my CPL to reflect my new gender identity but there are cases when officers flip out when they find out someone is transgender.
    I'd be interested in some factual accounts of this being the case rather than anecdotal references. I'm not so sure that most officers really care and are only trying to ascertain the veracity of the ID itself.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Samantha, I may be wrong, but were you involved in a LEO interaction that did not go well? I believe there was an incident in the Blaine area (a park maybe) were a LAC was stopped for OC. How did that work out?
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    I really don't like teh search function on here, but you can use a person's profile to see their recent posts, her other thread about OC and the park.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...57#post1748657

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    Regular Member skyisfalling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Samantha,

    I have been working in Blaine lately and there are a few OC'ers up there in that area. If you are interested having an impromptu meet up let me know. We also have regular coffee at Starbucks , Bakerview by Fred Meyer's Sunday mornings at 10 am.

    I don't have much to ad to your question that hasn't been covered.

    If you want you can PM me.
    +1
    Welcome Sam. I'm in your neighborhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I'd be interested in some factual accounts of this being the case rather than anecdotal references. I'm not so sure that most officers really care and are only trying to ascertain the veracity of the ID itself.
    It happens all the time you might not hear about it or see it but it's something we have to live with.

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1...arassment.html

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...bRBYwmfavLqZPw

    http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...-84630277.html

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Please come to Starbucks on sunday morns at 1000 for the regular Whatcom County Coffee. It isn't always all guys and the conversation isn't always guns. Come on down.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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