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Thread: Situational Awareness and Open Carry

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    Situational Awareness and Open Carry

    This is a real picture someone from another forum took. They were standing behind an OC person at a store.

    Note, he's also using a Serpa, and isn't using a gun belt.

    Scott

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    This is a real picture someone from another forum took. They were standing behind an OC person at a store.

    Note, he's also using a Serpa, and isn't using a gun belt.
    Real picture or staged? Patently staged.

    We deal in facts, reality here: no "store" in evidence, might easily be a paddle attachment w/narrow belt.
    It is quite obviously a "set up" picture with someone touching the handgun - points to situational awareness, nothing else.

    Its a typical get-your-attention, manufactured photo - not at all as you present it.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottE View Post
    This is a real picture someone from another forum took. They were standing behind an OC person at a store.

    Note, he's also using a Serpa, and isn't using a gun belt.
    Photoshop.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Real picture or staged? Patently staged.

    We deal in facts, reality here: no "store" in evidence, might easily be a paddle attachment w/narrow belt.
    It is quite obviously a "set up" picture with someone touching the handgun - points to situational awareness, nothing else.

    Its a typical get-your-attention, manufactured photo - not at all as you present it.
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Photoshop.
    A complete waste of space and an insult to everyone's intelligence.

    I originally deleted the thread - then thought it better to show how far some people will go to discredit us.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Hey, OP. I'll take you off ignore for you to answer the charges that that photo is manufactured--if you can.

    Well?

    You could identify the someone and the forum and let us check it out for ourselves. Until then, I think you have posted excellent support for why I give you zero credibility and have put you on ignore.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Why would the lack of a belt indicate that the photo has been manipulated?
    The SERPA comes with both belt and paddle mounts and both are decent. Heck, I use the belt mount because it was easier to put on and take off than the paddle mount.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Why would the lack of a belt indicate that the photo has been manipulated?
    The SERPA comes with both belt and paddle mounts and both are decent. Heck, I use the belt mount because it was easier to put on and take off than the paddle mount.
    Don't think anyone made the statement that the lack of a belt indicated that the photo had been manipulated.

    People regularly determine photoshops - generally by pixilation, color, texture etc.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Activist Member N605TW's Avatar
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    Staged or not I feel the point is conveyed. Everyone should keep an eye out for possible danger.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The photo does not show a Serpa paddle attachment, therefore it must be a belt atttachment. Look at the middle image here http://www.blackhawk.com/product/cqc...ews,328,82.htm and note the extended top of the paddle attachment. Compare it with what's seen in the photo. If it were a paddle you should see that extended top under the pointing finger - but all you see is the belt slots.

    As for whether or not the person's situational awareness has been compromised - merely coming up behind someone and pointing does not indicate a compromise. And even if there were a lapse, the use of a retention holster (and since Serpa fixed that problem of the release becoming jammed years ago Serpa is not a bad choice) indicates that the carrier has taken steps to avoid a simple gun grab.

    So, what's the problem?

    And in case anybody wants to know, I am, as a matter of fact, somewhat of an expert on the issue of pointing.

    stay safe.
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    Looks fake to me. As pointed out it looks like the belt attachment but yet there's no belt. There's also the fact that the gun looks like it goes up into the guy's armpit, and the gun blur compared to the blur of the rest of the picture seems off to me as well.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Nope - the gun rests just about elbow heigth. Same place my 1911 rests in my Serpa.

    Question: If this isn't a belt slide w/o a belt and it isn't a paddle, what is it? Rubber cement or epoxy?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-16-2012 at 12:30 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Nope - the gun rests just about elbow heigth. Same place my 1911 rests in my Serpa.

    Question: If this isn't a belt slide w/o a belt and it isn't a paddle, what is it? Rubber cement or epoxy?
    While I feel the photo is a fake, there is a possibility there was some glue involved in the posting of the photo. IYKWIM
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    (and since Serpa fixed that problem of the release becoming jammed years ago Serpa is not a bad choice) indicates that the carrier has taken steps to avoid a simple gun grab.
    If you have a serpa, try jamming it. They improved it some, but it is still very possible to jam it.

    When you further consider the Tex Grebner issue, the obvious nature of what the release mechanism is, and the much more minor issue of finish wear, the Serpa fails miserably in comparison to the Safariland models.

    I used to defend the Serpa system, but seriously, take a long, hard, non biased look at the Serpa. It is not deserving of the popularity is has.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Question: If this isn't a belt slide w/o a belt and it isn't a paddle, what is it? Rubber cement or epoxy?
    The belt (and belt loops) ought to be about 1/2 inch above the bottom of the shirt. Can't see them, so can't say for sure they are there. But by eliminating the paddle holster profile and confirming the belt slide profile it is probable that the belt does exist.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    If you have a serpa, try jamming it. They improved it some, but it is still very possible to jam it.

    When you further consider the Tex Grebner issue, the obvious nature of what the release mechanism is, and the much more minor issue of finish wear, the Serpa fails miserably in comparison to the Safariland models.

    I used to defend the Serpa system, but seriously, take a long, hard, non biased look at the Serpa. It is not deserving of the popularity is has.
    I can jam an open-top holster. Does that win me a bigger prize than the one for jamming a Serpa? (If not, how about jamming Mexican carry? 'Cause I can do that, too.)

    Evwery holster, including your beloved Safarilands, has inherent faults. Mr. Grabner screwed up - it was not a fault of the holster but of the shooter. The worst than could be said is that a small subset of Serpa users do not pay sufficient and proper heed to the manual of arms for the holster and wind up having one or more things gp wrong. I believe that the same could be said for inappropriate use/misuse of any impliment.

    The worst that can be said about the Serpa in comparison to the Safariland is that the placement of the release mechanism makes it easier for those who do not follow proper procedures to have that create unwanted consequences. (Unless, of course, you shill for one brand or the other.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Two simple methods will solve the problem with all holsters. Keep the safety on, if the gun has one, until pointed in a safe direction. Keep the nose picking finger out of the trigger guard until pointed in a safe direction.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Evwery holster, including your beloved Safarilands, has inherent faults. Mr. Grabner screwed up - it was not a fault of the holster but of the shooter. The worst than could be said is that a small subset of Serpa users do not pay sufficient and proper heed to the manual of arms for the holster and wind up having one or more things gp wrong. I believe that the same could be said for inappropriate use/misuse of any impliment.

    If there is a fault to the Safariland, please name it, because I don't yet know of it.

    The issue is not a small subset of Serpa users, but rather a large number of people who are either unaware, or unwilling to listen to a large number of well respected full time firearm instructors, as well as a large number of people who have had issues with them both due to jamming as well as the mechanism putting your moving finger too close to the trigger. For those who don't know, Safariland models leave your trigger finger to do nothing on your draw stroke other than stay away from the trigger.

    Anyone is free to make up their own mind, and it's lucky that the only real danger is such a user blowing a hole in their leg. The issue I have is that newer carriers who are just starting out can easily buy into the hype about serpas because of their availability and hype online. I would generally call it a disservice to newer carriers to have a one sided discussion on Serpas, (not unlike gun magazines one sided love for 1911s,) thus I find it incredibly important to point these things out.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Two simple methods will solve the problem with all holsters. Keep the safety on, if the gun has one, until pointed in a safe direction. Keep the nose picking finger out of the trigger guard until pointed in a safe direction.
    While this is true, an opinion many including myself hold is that a manual safety doesn't belong on a fighting gun, and that even if you have one that it should never be counted on. So counting on it for a 1911, then using a holster which requires your trigger finger to press into the holster, it ends up being pretty dangerous.

    This is the best summary of the issue which I know of.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    While this is true, an opinion many including myself hold is that a manual safety doesn't belong on a fighting gun, and that even if you have one that it should never be counted on. So counting on it for a 1911, then using a holster which requires your trigger finger to press into the holster, it ends up being pretty dangerous.

    This is the best summary of the issue which I know of.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc
    I have seen that video~~Pfft! A modern, properly operating firearm like the 1911 does not fire unless the trigger is pulled. I saw Tex's video, and I clearly saw the problem and it was not the holster, or the gun.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I have seen that video~~Pfft! A modern, properly operating firearm like the 1911 does not fire unless the trigger is pulled.
    I do not understand your point, since no one is debating that. In fact that is a further demonstration of my point, if anything, since the trigger being pulled accidentally/negligently is what the problem is with your holster requiring fine motor skills from your trigger finger in order to draw.

    If it can happen while trying to practice, then it could very easily happen in a life and death fight.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I do not understand your point, since no one is debating that. In fact that is a further demonstration of my point, if anything, since the trigger being pulled accidentally/negligently is what the problem is with your holster requiring fine motor skills from your trigger finger in order to draw.

    If it can happen while trying to practice, then it could very easily happen in a life and death fight.
    The problem is not the holster, the holster retention device does not require putting the finger in the trigger guard. The LA and highway patrol used a leather holster with similar retention, without anyone shooting themselves, or I have not heard of such. I believe the holster was called the judge. Plus many semi auto holsters and revolver police holsters had open trigger guards, still without problems, it was the standard for police years ago. The USAF Jordan holster had a cutout trigger guard, until the switch to the M-9. The FBI used for years a leather holster with a open trigger guard.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I do not understand your point, since no one is debating that. In fact that is a further demonstration of my point, if anything, since the trigger being pulled accidentally/negligently is what the problem is with your holster requiring fine motor skills from your trigger finger in order to draw.

    If it can happen while trying to practice, then it could very easily happen in a life and death fight.
    The problem is operator error - it is not a problem with the holster.

    Where is this "fine motor" skill? It is basic, fundamental gun safety. Do NOT put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire.

    Training muscle memory does not specifically relate to "fine motor" skill. It is...........ready for it?..............muscle memory. Practice presentations, practice presentations - wash, rinse and repeat.

    Willing to bet that the negligent discharges from non-Serpas is directly proportional to the numbers of people carrying other holsters. In other words - no appreciable statistical difference.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The LA and highway patrol used a leather holster with similar retention, without anyone shooting themselves, or I have not heard of such.
    There is a large difference between having a revolver in a holster that leaves the trigger exposed, and having to sweep a cross strap, or snap open a thumb break in order to draw, as opposed to having to press your trigger finger down into the holster as you draw a SAO or constant action striker fired pistol.

    Both seem stupid to me, but still, they are not the same thing.
    Last edited by Michigander; 11-16-2012 at 05:23 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    There is a large difference between having a revolver in a holster that leaves the trigger exposed, and having to sweep a cross strap, or snap open a thumb break in order to draw, as opposed to having to press your trigger finger down into the holster as you draw a SAO or constant action striker fired pistol.

    Both seem stupid to me, but still, they are not the same thing.
    The judge holster release was located at the trigger guard. Actually the release was located in the trigger guard. If anybody should have had a swarm of accidents it should have been them. I never used one, and would not, but it does highlight that the problem is between the ears, and the trigger finger.

    Attachment 9570
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 11-16-2012 at 06:22 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Nope - the gun rests just about elbow heigth. Same place my 1911 rests in my Serpa.

    Question: If this isn't a belt slide w/o a belt and it isn't a paddle, what is it? Rubber cement or epoxy?
    I guess it's just the way how it's focused on the gun makes it look off somehow.

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