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Thread: New Township rule on firearms for poll workers and voters NO GUNS or be arrested.

  1. #1
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    New Township rule on firearms for poll workers and voters NO GUNS or be arrested.

    Well for those of you who remember reading my post about me working the polls for the local township at the primary and the ensuing ****storm the clerk gave me about carrying my sidearm while working and my refusal to disarm for her.

    (In case you missed it)
    http://forums.opencarry.org/forums/s...=1#post1803463

    A letter showed up in the mail today addressed to me from the township (I will post a redacted copy in the next day or so when i get a minute) stating the NEW policy for ANY township employee, contractor or visitor (who is not a LEO) will NOT allow the carrying of firearms/knives of any type/explosives/chemical weapons in, at, or around the polls or township property, functions or events. They are demanding I sign the document if I wish to continue to work at the polls. The letter also goes on to state they can and will search me, my property and/or vehicle at their will to make sure myself and/or others are in compliance with the new policy.

    They also threatened to Trespass me and have me arrested if I show up at the polls with my firearm to vote or work.

    Unbelievable, they are trying to take away my 2nd and 4th Amendment rights in one fail swoop. I am saddened and dismayed that they are forcing me to choose between what I feel is my civic duty to help with the election and my firm belief in the right to keep and bear arms.

    I realize they can come up with whatever convoluted, garbage employment contract they want and try to strongarm workers into signing it. However their veiled threats to have me arrested if I come to vote with my sidearm infuriates me to no end.

    I am unsure how to proceed from here. Obviously I will NOT sign ANY document relinquishing my rights which means I will probably be dismissed as a poll supervisor and will not be working at the election. I will not be bullied, intimidated or prevented from exercising my right to participate in the election.

    I am contemplating writing a response to their letter informing them they can prevent me from working without my sidearm but they are a Township therefore falling under the provisions of the MCL 123.1102 statute (correct me please if I am wrong) and they CANNOT prevent me or anyone else for that matter from showing up for the election or any other Township function or event with my sidearm. Township property and buildings are public spaces and they have NO authority to regulate possession and/or carrying of weapons on that property.

    The fact they are already threatening to have people arrested who violate their illegal policy needs to be addressed. I am looking for advice and opinions on this matter from the powers that be who have more experience and knowledge then I. I humbly ask for MOC and others to enlighten me on the best way to proceed forward on this matter so that the township and I come to an amicable consensus. If they don't want me to work the polls with my sidearm so be it, but I WILL BE VOTING with it regardless if they like it or not.

    My apologies for this long winded rant.

    /rant off

    Hevy
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

  2. #2
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    You should post this here: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...oard,29.0.html
    This Nov. election should be a good one and your township isnt the only one going to try and pull some BS like this. Have your recorded charged and video if possible.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hevymetal View Post
    Well for those of you who remember reading my post about me working the polls for the local township at the primary and the ensuing ****storm the clerk gave me about carrying my sidearm while working and my refusal to disarm for her.

    (In case you missed it)
    http://forums.opencarry.org/forums/s...=1#post1803463

    A letter showed up in the mail today addressed to me from the township (I will post a redacted copy in the next day or so when i get a minute) stating the NEW policy for ANY township employee, contractor or visitor (who is not a LEO) will NOT allow the carrying of firearms/knives of any type/explosives/chemical weapons in, at, or around the polls or township property, functions or events. They are demanding I sign the document if I wish to continue to work at the polls. The letter also goes on to state they can and will search me, my property and/or vehicle at their will to make sure myself and/or others are in compliance with the new policy.

    They also threatened to Trespass me and have me arrested if I show up at the polls with my firearm to vote or work.

    Unbelievable, they are trying to take away my 2nd and 4th Amendment rights in one fail swoop. I am saddened and dismayed that they are forcing me to choose between what I feel is my civic duty to help with the election and my firm belief in the right to keep and bear arms.

    I realize they can come up with whatever convoluted, garbage employment contract they want and try to strongarm workers into signing it. However their veiled threats to have me arrested if I come to vote with my sidearm infuriates me to no end.

    I am unsure how to proceed from here. Obviously I will NOT sign ANY document relinquishing my rights which means I will probably be dismissed as a poll supervisor and will not be working at the election. I will not be bullied, intimidated or prevented from exercising my right to participate in the election.

    I am contemplating writing a response to their letter informing them they can prevent me from working without my sidearm but they are a Township therefore falling under the provisions of the MCL 123.1102 statute (correct me please if I am wrong) and they CANNOT prevent me or anyone else for that matter from showing up for the election or any other Township function or event with my sidearm. Township property and buildings are public spaces and they have NO authority to regulate possession and/or carrying of weapons on that property.

    The fact they are already threatening to have people arrested who violate their illegal policy needs to be addressed. I am looking for advice and opinions on this matter from the powers that be who have more experience and knowledge then I. I humbly ask for MOC and others to enlighten me on the best way to proceed forward on this matter so that the township and I come to an amicable consensus. If they don't want me to work the polls with my sidearm so be it, but I WILL BE VOTING with it regardless if they like it or not.

    My apologies for this long winded rant.

    /rant off

    Hevy
    just go and roll audio. you would have a major lawsuit if they attempt to interfere with your right to vote. my brother is currently suing 4-5 agencies in and around st joseph's county indiana for removing him from voting. and yes, they have no ability to stop you from carrying at any official township function. i will go with you to the next public meeting if you wish, as will many people i'm sure. if they "employ" you during the elections, they may be able to stop you from carrying while you act as an agent on their behalf. but they cannot stop you when you are a private citizen from attending a public function on public property.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 10-11-2012 at 04:55 PM.
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  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    just print out this article and send it back with your unsigned letter. see what happens. indiana has preemption very similar to our MCL123.1102
    http://www.abc57.com/news/local/Mari...150721665.html
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 10-11-2012 at 05:00 PM.
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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    I take it the Township trustees never heard of preemption?
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    What township is this?

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    What township is this?
    OP shows clinton twp under his username, i would assume that is where he is talking about
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Edited to stop confusion of location.
    Last edited by scot623; 10-11-2012 at 07:49 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Who wants to go look at some books in the Clinton Township Library on Gratiot?
    I'm up for a good read.

  10. #10
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    Actually it is Casco township. The wife and i moved to Clinton twp but I am still registered to vote in Casco.
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    time and place hevy. i'm there.
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    Have someone who is unarmed, carry audio and video if at all possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    I take it the Township trustees never heard of preemption?
    As an employee of the township, he would be bound by policy/ordinance.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xps...e=mcl-123-1103

    123.1103 Permissible prohibitions or regulation.
    Sec. 3.

    This act does not prohibit a local unit of government from doing either of the following:

    (a) Prohibiting or regulating conduct with a pistol or other firearm that is a criminal offense under state law.

    (b) Prohibiting or regulating the transportation, carrying, or possession of pistols and other firearms by employees of that local unit of government in the course of their employment with that local unit of government.

    History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991


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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    As an employee of the township, he would be bound by policy/ordinance.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xps...e=mcl-123-1103
    As a poll worker, that is true, but assuming he doesn't work the polls this year because of their new policy, he is simply another citizen exercising his right to vote, and his right to bear arms. Preemption applies.
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  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    it seems like that letter (pending the reading of the actual text) is trying to make it illegal for employees even when they are not performing their duties. and the part about visitors seems to ban everyone from having weapons at ANY township function or property at ANY time.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 10-12-2012 at 07:41 AM.
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  16. #16
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    it seems like that letter (pending the reading of the actual text) is trying to make it illegal for employees even when they are not performing their duties. and the part about visitors seems to ban everyone from having weapons at ANY township function or property at ANY time.
    That's the way I read it too. If you ask me, a violation of the State's preemption law.
    Big Gay Al
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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Seems like a tricky situation, but...

    Unfortunately, IMHO, if you are employed by them, they can dictate what you do on the job. Two suggestions: Quit, if your not doing it for the money. Or, go to work unarmed, as required by employer policy, then after work, show up as a voter. And follow what the others are saying. RECORD, RECORD, RECORD!! Audio and video. Get names and pictures. Document as much as possible. And as for that letter, sends it back without signature. If they release you, so be it.

    And to add, send them a letter stating the obvious state law they would be violating.
    Last edited by Tucker6900; 10-12-2012 at 08:31 AM.
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  18. #18
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    As promised a copy of the letter sent to me by the township.
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    As written for employees , it appears mostly legal based on mcl123.1101. I don't see where this apply's to voters?
    Also, searching employees cars no matter where they are parked? Really? What if you left your gun in your car at home?? Are they going to demand to search it and fire you when you tell them to pound sand??

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    As an employee of the township, he would be bound by policy/ordinance.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xps...e=mcl-123-1103
    As are the township officials. Let's not overlook this little gem...

    "Any public official, appointed or elected, who is responsible for enforcing or upholding any law of this state and who wilfully and knowingly fails to uphold or enforce the law with the result that any person's legal rights are denied is guilty of a misdemeanor."

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(esf...ame=mcl-752-11

    Carry on

  21. #21
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    By a strict reading their policy prohibits an employee from bearing, or even owning arms of any kind, whether actually on township property, or not, and whether actually working, or not. It also would seem to deny 4th amendment protections as well.

    Given the over reach of the policy it seems to clearly exceed MCL 123.1103, and directly violate MCL 123.1102, not to mention civil rights under the 2nd, and 4th amendments, and depending on your reason to carry (such as a political statement) you could argue that it violates your 1st Amendment rights as well, not to mention your right to vote should they attempt to prohibit you from voting while your carrying.

    It would seem that you have a pretty good Title 18 civil rights lawsuit, not to mention the violations of MCL 123.1102, and the crimininal violations of MCL 752.11. If you care to fight it, see if you can't suck a couple million out of them.

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: New Township rule on firearms for poll workers and voters NO GUNS or be arrested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    By a strict reading their policy prohibits an employee from bearing, or even owning arms of any kind, whether actually on township property, or not, and whether actually working, or not. It also would seem to deny 4th amendment protections as well.

    Given the over reach of the policy it seems to clearly exceed MCL 123.1103, and directly violate MCL 123.1102, not to mention civil rights under the 2nd, and 4th amendments, and depending on your reason to carry (such as a political statement) you could argue that it violates your 1st Amendment rights as well, not to mention your right to vote should they attempt to prohibit you from voting while your carrying.

    It would seem that you have a pretty good Title 18 civil rights lawsuit, not to mention the violations of MCL 123.1102, and the crimininal violations of MCL 752.11. If you care to fight it, see if you can't suck a couple million out of them.
    Could you explain to me, as written, how this policy for employees violates the law?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hevymetal View Post
    As promised a copy of the letter sent to me by the township.
    I have one question for you. Are you an employee, or is this volunteer work that you do at the polls?
    Big Gay Al
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  24. #24
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    You should immediately call a department head or supervisor and report the mayor for violating this township policy as dairy creamer, coffee and water are all chemical compounds, additionally all township vehicles should be immediately drained off all fluids as those too are chemical compounds.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Re: New Township rule on firearms for poll workers and voters NO GUNS or be arrested.

    After reading the letter, that is perfect evidence of violation of state law. As I said, as an employee, you are bound by their rules, but citizens are allowed by law to carry. Almost makes me want to come home to vote.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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