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Thread: Boyfriend tells police he fatally shot girlfriend after mistaking her for int

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Boyfriend tells police he fatally shot girlfriend after mistaking her for int

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Involuntary manslaughter. He meant to shoot something that he failed to even identify. We simply cannot allow that type of stupidity, carelessness, and fear to go unpunished.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Can we please self-moderate and not post gun news stories that have no immediate relevance to open carry?
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Can we please self-moderate and not post gun news stories that have no immediate relevance to open carry?
    All events such as this will be used against open carriers. Remember that ridiculous video in circulation during the AB144 campaign? It was right along this same line. Trigger happy gun owner/carrier with quick access to their guns, frightened into making a terrible decision

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    He'll probably plead out to a manslaughter charge.

    I doubt he's going to argue justifiable homicide, he seems from the story to be feel very guilty over the incident and has talked to the cops without a lawyer.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure.

    Different state, but that pesky "what would a reasonable person believe given the available facts at that time" creeps into my mind.

    http://www.waff.com/story/19811617/t...d-during-prank

    The only thing is that it seems that teenager(s) possessed a pistol where it may be found illegal to have possessed a pistol.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    All the article states is a snippet of information. I would like to see more before offering up a quick opinion.

    It could be he announced he had a gun and would shoot unless she identified herself.

    It could be murder.

    Lets wait until more information is known.

    Certainly not good that a woman died.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Please be sure to review the forum rules.

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    (8) KEEP IT ON-TOPIC: All gun rights discussions not directly related to open carry should take place in the "General Discussions" forum and topics that are not related to gun rights at all should take place in "The Lounge". Please police your own posts before posting them and help keep OCDO strong and focused.

    (20) DISRUPTIVE POSTERS WILL BE BANNED: We have struggled over how to address posters who do not significantly break any of the forum rules but whose very presence is disruptive to the forum and to the mission of OpenCarry.org. The result of our deliberations is that we reserve the right to ban anyone, at any time if we determine that you fall into this category. We believe strongly that the internet should foster open dialog but we also need to maintain the forum as a valuable resource for new members and the general public. Any action that threatens this mission could lead to disciplinary action, including being banned.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    Yeah, lets only talk about open carry in California in this subsection.

    How about everyone share their handgun open carry stories in the last year.........Condition Three, you go first.......
    +1 LOL

    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    Involuntary manslaughter. He meant to shoot something that he failed to even identify. We simply cannot allow that type of stupidity, carelessness, and fear to go unpunished.
    Yeah! Lets punish them! That'll teach them far better than educating or training the public on how to handle tactical situations in their home! And, when that doesn't work, then we can get busy banning guns because the punishment-only model didn't work.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Yeah! Lets punish them! That'll teach them far better than educating or training the public on how to handle tactical situations in their home! And, when that doesn't work, then we can get busy banning guns because the punishment-only model didn't work.
    Training and education are available. We always go around saying we should enforce the laws we already have as opposed to making new ones. If we become apologists for the fools who shoot first and ask questions later, we will prove ourselves to be the gun lobbyist that our detractors make us out to be

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    IMO they should do a thorough investigation, then decide how to proceed. At this point I can't see the productivity of throwing this guy in prison if he is telling the truth. Stuff happens, that will never change, at this point it is hard to say what should or should not be done with him is hard to say, at least for me.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    IMO they should do a thorough investigation, then decide how to proceed. At this point I can't see the productivity of throwing this guy in prison if he is telling the truth. Stuff happens, that will never change, at this point it is hard to say what should or should not be done with him is hard to say, at least for me.
    Uh....he said he fired at a shadow or silhouett. How many times have you been either of those in your life. You don't see criminal negligence there?
    Last edited by Save Our State; 10-16-2012 at 06:34 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    Uh....he said he fired at a shadow or silhouett. How many times have you been either of those in your life. You don't see criminal negligence there?
    It does not matter what you or I see. It matters what the police, and prosecutor see, and maybe a jury. Our POTUS has been responsible for killing hundreds of innocent children and women, do you see criminal negligence?

    It may very well turn out this is a murder case, then a couple years in prison would not be appropriate. But sure act now let him get off with a couple years and be forgotten. At this point evidence is needed, and then the appropriate people can make a decision.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It may very well turn out this is a murder case, then a couple years in prison would not be appropriate. But sure act now let him get off with a couple years and be forgotten. At this point evidence is needed, and then the appropriate people can make a decision.
    I won't disagree with that. Just had to refute the " tragic accident" defense that was floated

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    I won't disagree with that. Just had to refute the " tragic accident" defense that was floated
    There is no such thing as a "accident".
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    I guess the moderators should just close this sub-forum then since there will be nothing to talk about come January, right? Why don't you allow the moderators to determine what they will allow -- since this is their forum and not your own -- since that is their choice to make and not yours.

    This thread is relevant to firearms in the fullest, and the man was "openly carrying" his firearm at the time of shooting, so how could you argue otherwise?
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 10-19-2012 at 11:28 AM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    I won't disagree with that. Just had to refute the " tragic accident" defense that was floated
    When that's your only defense .. you use it, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    Uh....he said he fired at a shadow or silhouett. How many times have you been either of those in your life. You don't see criminal negligence there?
    Not necessarily.

    We can't look at these things from the viewpoint of someone who is trained, and then forget the length and breadth of human emotion and attitude. First, we can come up with the wrong answers. But, even more important in my mind, we can hand the government more power to cage people. Also, I am especially wary of the whole "carrying a gun is an awesome responsibility" thing. Far too often in our society responsibility is put across as blame or a way to avoid blame ("you had better do this or you will be held responsible for any negative outcome!"). Any particular self-defense angle or tactic being put across by a gun guru or self-defense expert is only as good as that instructor's judgement. I'm not willing to take a dictum, for example, "you are responsible for every shot you fire", and use it to hang everyone.

    I recall a very good example of mis-used responsibility. In Mas Ayoob's video Judicious Use of Deadly Force, he repeatedly uses the awesome-responsibility angle and the you'll-be-hanged angle. His belief that his students are irresponsible adolescents who need to be hammered and scared positively pours out as an undercurrent from some of his comments. OK, am I supposed to suddenly adopt his attitude just because he thinks he needs to approach his students that way in order to get them to act responsibly?

    Do you see what I am getting at? If we take an instructor's principles that include heavy weight on the responsibility angle as a student scare tactic, and turn around and apply them to everybody, we may condemn people who don't deserve it.

    Back to human emotion and attitude. In the OP situation, I can easily see an untrained person in such a situation. I can also easily see a scaredy-cat person in such a situation. You know, such people do exist. Not everybody has the nerves of Audy Murphy or John Basilone. Reason deserts them in times of heavy stress. Some of us are basically saying that if such a person is untrained--meaning his never been taught the possibilities in such an encounter--he now has to think up those possibilities at exactly the time his reason is deserting him, at exactly the time his whole attention is fixed on that sound down the corridor in high fear, his ability to think frozen.


    There is a big wide difference between an untrained scaredy-cat's mistake and somebody who celebrates in the street and fires into the air.
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-19-2012 at 02:47 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Not necessarily.

    We can't look at these things from the viewpoint of someone who is trained, and then forget the length and breadth of human emotion and attitude. First, we can come up with the wrong answers. But, even more important in my mind, we can hand the government more power to cage people. Also, I am especially wary of the whole "carrying a gun is an awesome responsibility" thing. Far too often in our society responsibility is put across as blame or a way to avoid blame ("you had better do this or you will be held responsible for any negative outcome!"). Any particular self-defense angle or tactic being put across by a gun guru or self-defense expert is only as good as that instructor's judgement. I'm not willing to take a dictum, for example, "you are responsible for every shot you fire", and use it to hang everyone.

    I recall a very good example of mis-used responsibility. In Mas Ayoob's video Judicious Use of Deadly Force, he repeatedly uses the awesome-responsibility angle and the you'll-be-hanged angle. His belief that his students are irresponsible adolescents who need to be hammered and scared positively pours out as an undercurrent from some of his comments. OK, am I supposed to suddenly adopt his attitude just because he thinks he needs to approach his students that way in order to get them to act responsibly?

    Do you see what I am getting at? If we take an instructor's principles that include heavy weight on the responsibility angle as a student scare tactic, and turn around and apply them to everybody, we may condemn people who don't deserve it.

    Back to human emotion and attitude. In the OP situation, I can easily see an untrained person in such a situation. I can also easily see a scaredy-cat person in such a situation. You know, such people do exist. Not everybody has the nerves of Audy Murphy or John Basilone. Reason deserts them in times of heavy stress. Some of us are basically saying that if such a person is untrained--meaning his never been taught the possibilities in such an encounter--he now has to think up those possibilities at exactly the time his reason is deserting him, at exactly the time his whole attention is fixed on that sound down the corridor in high fear, his ability to think frozen.


    There is a big wide difference between an untrained scaredy-cat's mistake and somebody who celebrates in the street and fires into the air.
    We are worlds apart on this I'm afraid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    I guess the moderators should just close this sub-forum then since there will be nothing to talk about come January, right? Why don't you allow the moderators to determine what they will allow -- since this is their forum and not your own -- since that is their choice to make and not yours.

    This thread is relevant to firearms in the fullest, and the man was "openly carrying" his firearm at the time of shooting, so how could you argue otherwise?
    I'm guessing that C3 is concerned that we will all be led astray, and not continue our effort in OC. The lack of OC events is certainly cause for concern when coupled with that.
    I'm planning an OC for long gun very, very soon. Lot's of research is going into this one, so it is taking a while to prepare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    We are worlds apart on this I'm afraid.
    Yeah, no snit. That was the whole reason I wrote it. The real question is whether you have articulate and thoughtful counter-arguments.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Yeah, no snit. That was the whole reason I wrote it. The real question is whether you have articulate and thoughtful counter-arguments.
    I'll wait and see if the DA here articulates it for me. Fear is not a significant defense for cavalier behaviour when deadly force is used. It's certainly not fair or just to the victim
    Last edited by Save Our State; 10-19-2012 at 06:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    I'll wait and see if the DA here articulates it for me. For now, let's just say I'm glad we're not room-mates. I move around in the dark all the time.
    Oh? You don't have an argument.

    Ron Paul, as a matter of civility, doesn't criticize his opponents; he criticizes their ideas. Too bad you don't have any ideas for me to criticize. I even went first, laying out my reasoning for you. Giving you a chance to critique my ideas. Instead, you decide to try a sideways insult. Like I said, you don't have an argument.

    Tsk, tsk, tsk.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh? You don't have an argument.

    Ron Paul, as a matter of civility, doesn't criticize his opponents; he criticizes their ideas. Too bad you don't have any ideas for me to criticize. I even went first, laying out my reasoning for you. Giving you a chance to critique my ideas. Instead, you decide to try a sideways insult. Like I said, you don't have an argument.

    Tsk, tsk, tsk.
    I thought I had retracted that soon enough, but I did rethink that and change my post immediately. I have lots of argument over that, but it's just not a proper time for me right now. Ron Paul?
    Anyway, Sorry you saw that post before I changed it.

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