Cubex DE
Regular Member
First of all, let me say that I am not anti-cop. I do not oppose the police, nor am I trying to fight against them. I am completely in favor of the role that they are intended to play; that is, crime investigation and criminal arrest after a crime has been committed. The police were never intended to perform "presence patrols" down city streets, draw their weapons in the name of "officer safety," or to try to prevent crime before it happens or respond to it as it is happening. They were never intended to protect the public. Their original purpose is to investigate crimes and make arrests of suspects after the fact, and we are reminded on a constant basis that their patrols mean nothing and they don't have any obligation (or, indeed, the ability) to protect us. Most of us are on this forum because we recognize that we must take the initiative to protect ourselves instead of depending on the police to do it, since this is neither their purpose or within their means.
What I do oppose is the current culture in the law enforcement community that promotes the ideas that the general public that they are meant to serve is somehow lower than them, that we are second-rate citizens, and that we do not deserve their respect or the rights that God has given to all men, including the right to keep and bear arms in our defense. In general, many of us have found that most cops, while claiming to be pro-gun, oppose the right of the individual citizen to carry a firearm. Some cops even oppose CC, even making insane threats of violence, as we have all been shocked to find out. They believe that since they enforce the law, they are above it, and can do anything without repercussions, imposing their own will in the name of "public safety." Corruption reigns supreme throughout the entire "justice" system, with people sworn to uphold the law taking pride in their ability to punish innocent people. Worse, when they do violently break the law, the entire law enforcement community rallies behind them with support and tries to skew the facts in their favor, even when the cop was clearly in the wrong. A recent case that occurred in my own city happened when an unarmed and mentally disabled janitor was falsely accused of robbery, resulting in multiple officers beating and tasing him. He died two days later from the massive internal injuries caused by the blunt trauma. Only one officer responsible was convicted of using excessive force, all while being saluted in the courtroom by multiple uniformed members of his former department.
Furthermore, I am strongly against the way the police conduct their investigations through lying and coercion. As many of you already know, the police are trained to lie to you, and to word their requests in such a way as to convince you that you are legally required to do something or to consent to letting them do something ("You don't mind if I take a look in your trunk, do you?"), and even if you can prove in court that they lied to you, coerced you, or intimidated you to obtain their evidence, nothing will happen to them, nor will your charges be dismissed, because a cop lying to you or coercing you through intimidation is not illegal.
With all of that being said, it is clearly NOT in our best interest to open our mouths and convey any information to the police. Many will disagree, saying that they haven't done anything wrong and therefore have nothing to hide... but this is in blatant ignorance to the fact the the Fifth Amendment was never intended to protect the guilty, but the innocent! The founding fathers knew that if you have done nothing wrong, then you should not need to say anything and the police have no business questioning you. You should refuse to answer their questions and continue on your way, knowing full well that you are guilty of no crime and therefore you should not be under suspicion in the first place. In other words, keep your mouth shut, not because you have nothing to hide, but because you have nothing to share.
I know this forum is all about OC, and I am very pro-OC, but let me take a moment and address the CC'ers in this paragraph. If you are OC-only as I am, feel free to skip this paragraph while I address my CC'ing brethren. In some states, it is required in interactions with the police that you disclose your carry of a weapon to the cop and that you immediately present your license or permit to do so. I advise that you do not live in one of these states, as there are many other (gun-friendly) states to choose from. If, however, you wake up one morning to find that you have mysteriously been transplanted into one of these states, I would advise that you move somewhere else immediately. Once you are successful in doing so, you should never disclose your carry of a concealed weapon to any cop ever again. Even if they ask, your response should be that you choose to remain silent. Why? Because, as discussed above, many police think you are beneath them, and they may not be too happy to discover that they are not the only ones with guns.
Back to the topic at hand. Some of you may still not be convinced, errantly thinking that if you are innocent, your truthful testimony of innocence cannot possibly get you in trouble. This is completely and utterly false, and you could not be more mistaken. This video should be required viewing for every citizen of the United States, as it shows a criminal defense attorney urging innocent people to keep their stupid mouths shut whenever interacting with the police, followed by a veteran detective absolutely agreeing with everything the attorney just said. Example after example of innocent people being sent to prison and exactly how it happened are given, and every one of them could have been avoided by simply choosing to remain silent.
The simple fact is that, so long as the police continue their parade of intimidation patrols, their attempts to harass and bother law abiding citizens who choose to exercise their rights, and their total ignorance of the law and abuse of the powers given to them, nobody should ever speak to the police, give them any information or answer any questions, and we should all minimize any contact with the police and be sure to inform them that their contact with us is not consensual or voluntary on our part. They won't like it, but let's face it: it's not going to get us in any deeper trouble than carrying a firearm will, and those of us who OC (or even CC) have accepted the fact that we are going to be harassed by the police for doing nothing wrong. Don't let their intimidation tactics work, and we will collectively show them that, while they are entitled to their own personal feelings regarding our possession and carry of a firearm, their opinion has no place in performing their duties and we will not make the harassment easy for them. We OC so that we are not an easy target for criminals; we need to stop being one for dirty cops.
I have my bowl of popcorn ready; let the debate commence!
What I do oppose is the current culture in the law enforcement community that promotes the ideas that the general public that they are meant to serve is somehow lower than them, that we are second-rate citizens, and that we do not deserve their respect or the rights that God has given to all men, including the right to keep and bear arms in our defense. In general, many of us have found that most cops, while claiming to be pro-gun, oppose the right of the individual citizen to carry a firearm. Some cops even oppose CC, even making insane threats of violence, as we have all been shocked to find out. They believe that since they enforce the law, they are above it, and can do anything without repercussions, imposing their own will in the name of "public safety." Corruption reigns supreme throughout the entire "justice" system, with people sworn to uphold the law taking pride in their ability to punish innocent people. Worse, when they do violently break the law, the entire law enforcement community rallies behind them with support and tries to skew the facts in their favor, even when the cop was clearly in the wrong. A recent case that occurred in my own city happened when an unarmed and mentally disabled janitor was falsely accused of robbery, resulting in multiple officers beating and tasing him. He died two days later from the massive internal injuries caused by the blunt trauma. Only one officer responsible was convicted of using excessive force, all while being saluted in the courtroom by multiple uniformed members of his former department.
Furthermore, I am strongly against the way the police conduct their investigations through lying and coercion. As many of you already know, the police are trained to lie to you, and to word their requests in such a way as to convince you that you are legally required to do something or to consent to letting them do something ("You don't mind if I take a look in your trunk, do you?"), and even if you can prove in court that they lied to you, coerced you, or intimidated you to obtain their evidence, nothing will happen to them, nor will your charges be dismissed, because a cop lying to you or coercing you through intimidation is not illegal.
With all of that being said, it is clearly NOT in our best interest to open our mouths and convey any information to the police. Many will disagree, saying that they haven't done anything wrong and therefore have nothing to hide... but this is in blatant ignorance to the fact the the Fifth Amendment was never intended to protect the guilty, but the innocent! The founding fathers knew that if you have done nothing wrong, then you should not need to say anything and the police have no business questioning you. You should refuse to answer their questions and continue on your way, knowing full well that you are guilty of no crime and therefore you should not be under suspicion in the first place. In other words, keep your mouth shut, not because you have nothing to hide, but because you have nothing to share.
I know this forum is all about OC, and I am very pro-OC, but let me take a moment and address the CC'ers in this paragraph. If you are OC-only as I am, feel free to skip this paragraph while I address my CC'ing brethren. In some states, it is required in interactions with the police that you disclose your carry of a weapon to the cop and that you immediately present your license or permit to do so. I advise that you do not live in one of these states, as there are many other (gun-friendly) states to choose from. If, however, you wake up one morning to find that you have mysteriously been transplanted into one of these states, I would advise that you move somewhere else immediately. Once you are successful in doing so, you should never disclose your carry of a concealed weapon to any cop ever again. Even if they ask, your response should be that you choose to remain silent. Why? Because, as discussed above, many police think you are beneath them, and they may not be too happy to discover that they are not the only ones with guns.
Back to the topic at hand. Some of you may still not be convinced, errantly thinking that if you are innocent, your truthful testimony of innocence cannot possibly get you in trouble. This is completely and utterly false, and you could not be more mistaken. This video should be required viewing for every citizen of the United States, as it shows a criminal defense attorney urging innocent people to keep their stupid mouths shut whenever interacting with the police, followed by a veteran detective absolutely agreeing with everything the attorney just said. Example after example of innocent people being sent to prison and exactly how it happened are given, and every one of them could have been avoided by simply choosing to remain silent.
The simple fact is that, so long as the police continue their parade of intimidation patrols, their attempts to harass and bother law abiding citizens who choose to exercise their rights, and their total ignorance of the law and abuse of the powers given to them, nobody should ever speak to the police, give them any information or answer any questions, and we should all minimize any contact with the police and be sure to inform them that their contact with us is not consensual or voluntary on our part. They won't like it, but let's face it: it's not going to get us in any deeper trouble than carrying a firearm will, and those of us who OC (or even CC) have accepted the fact that we are going to be harassed by the police for doing nothing wrong. Don't let their intimidation tactics work, and we will collectively show them that, while they are entitled to their own personal feelings regarding our possession and carry of a firearm, their opinion has no place in performing their duties and we will not make the harassment easy for them. We OC so that we are not an easy target for criminals; we need to stop being one for dirty cops.
I have my bowl of popcorn ready; let the debate commence!
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