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Thread: Open carry across state lines

  1. #1
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    Open carry across state lines

    I am a military member stationed in Ne. I am looking to visit some family out in In and would like to OC on the way there. I currently have all legal documentation to OC in Ne but I need to know about carrying in my car on the way to In. I will also be recieving another sub compact pistol while in In which will be used for CC.

    Any legal advice for doing this would be helpful

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandman87 View Post
    I am a military member stationed in Ne. I am looking to visit some family out in In and would like to OC on the way there. I currently have all legal documentation to OC in Ne but I need to know about carrying in my car on the way to In. I will also be recieving another sub compact pistol while in In which will be used for CC.

    Any legal advice for doing this would be helpful
    Welcome to OCDO and thank you for your service. I was born and raised in Omaha - much has changed there though. BTW - the following is not "legal advice" - just passing on information for your consideration.

    You must obey the laws of the states you visit or conform to the requirements of the Firearm Owners Protection Act if simply passing through. The following link to OC maps will get you started:
    http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=101

    You do not indicate if you have a NE concealed carry permit - if you do, it will be recognized by IN. Note that you cannot OC in IN w/o a recognized permit.
    http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_ca...city_maps.html

    Recommend that you also read all pertinent information here as a starter:
    http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_ca...city_maps.html

    Please note that an individual who does not possess a federal firearms license may not sell a handgun to a resident of another state without first transferring the firearm to a dealer in the purchaser's state.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law...en_individuals

    Good luck, enjoy your trip.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Welcome to OCDO and thank you for your service. I was born and raised in Omaha - much has changed there though. BTW - the following is not "legal advice" - just passing on information for your consideration.

    You must obey the laws of the states you visit or conform to the requirements of the Firearm Owners Protection Act if simply passing through. The following link to OC maps will get you started:
    http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=101

    You do not indicate if you have a NE concealed carry permit - if you do, it will be recognized by IN. Note that you cannot OC in IN w/o a recognized permit.
    http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_ca...city_maps.html

    Recommend that you also read all pertinent information here as a starter:
    http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_ca...city_maps.html

    Please note that an individual who does not possess a federal firearms license may not sell a handgun to a resident of another state without first transferring the firearm to a dealer in the purchaser's state.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law...en_individuals

    Good luck, enjoy your trip.
    I will be getting a CCW but as of right now I do not have one. I am still awaiting some of the documentation I need

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Respectfully, Grapeshot, it is illegal for even an FFL to sell or transfer a handgun to a resident of another state without sending it to an FFL in the recipient's state of residence. 18 USC 922 (b)(3).

    Bandman87,

    Why type of "receiving" a handgun in IN are you planning, and are you a legal resident of Indiana - meaning by Federal law present in Indiana with an intention of making a home there. A temporary loan of a handgun to you is legal, by Federal law. If you are not a resident of Indiana, though, the permanent transfer of a handgun to you in Indiana in any way, by anyone (other than an inheritance if someone died) violates Federal law.

    Grapeshot was correct - as you travel through states, you can either comply with each state's laws when you are in that state - or you can comply with 18 USC 926A which is referred to as Firearms Owners Protection Act - which basically requires the unloaded handgun and ammunition to be separated from the occupants of the vehicle either locked in an exterior compartment such as trunk, or without a trunk in a locked container. Interior compartments such as glovebox or center console are not allowed, even if locked.
    So you're saying that no matter what kind of carry permit I may have, in order to recieve the gun as a gift it must go through an FFL in IN and then to an FFL here?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandman87 View Post
    I will be getting a CCW but as of right now I do not have one. I am still awaiting some of the documentation I need
    Hope you get your permit before embarking on the trip; otherwise you will not be able to carrying in Indiana while out and about.
    http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/cod.../ar47/ch2.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Respectfully, Grapeshot, it is illegal for even an FFL to sell or transfer a handgun to a resident of another state without sending it to an FFL in the recipient's state of residence. 18 USC 922 (b)(3).
    --snip--
    You are of course correct. I did not make that clear enough.

    I once took a handgun to be gifted to a friend in PA on a trip to visit him. We went to a local FFL to legally accomplish the transfer.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Regardless of your carry permit, the handgun must be shipped to a Nebraska FFL for transfer to you. The giver/seller can ship the handgun to an FFL in NE, but in the case of a handgun it would probably be cheaper for an IN FFL to mail the gun to a NE FFL. An FFL can mail a handgun via US Post Office to another FFL, whereas a private party cannot mail a handgun via US Post Office and must pay for expensive shipping via UPS or FEDEX. Make sure to make prior arrangements with the receiving FFL in Nebraska and know what their company policies are.

    18 USC 922 (a)(3), (a)(5) and (b)(3) are the governing Federal laws regarding transfers of firearms between residents/FFLs of different states:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

    Note that there are no exceptions for gift/sale, family or not, carry permit or not, and an FFL is prohibited from transferring a handgun to an out-of-state recipient. The only exceptions are for temporary loans and inheritances when someone dies.

    Also, in my previous post, I meant that a glovebox or center console will not conform to the requirements of the Federal law FOPA, but they might be legal storage places according to whatever state law you are in at the time. You don't have to conform to the requirements of FOPA, if you are complying with the state law of the state you are in.

    Thanks for all the great info and not to worry about carrying my own firearm out there. I drive a hatchback with no "trunk" but I will have it secured in a lockbox with the pistol disassembled. It's a springfield xd 40 so it comes apart very easily

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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bandman87 View Post
    I am a military member stationed in Ne. I am looking to visit some family out in In and would like to OC on the way there. I currently have all legal documentation to OC in Ne but I need to know about carrying in my car on the way to In. I will also be recieving another sub compact pistol while in In which will be used for CC.

    Any legal advice for doing this would be helpful
    Since their is no such thing as an open carry permit,,
    I have to wonder, what kind of legal documentation you currently have!
    clue... anybody can open carry in Nebraska...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bandman87 View Post
    I will be getting a CCW but as of right now I do not have one. I am still awaiting some of the documentation I need
    I cant think of any documentation you could need that a man in the service would not already have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bandman87 View Post
    So you're saying that no matter what kind of carry permit I may have, in order to recieve the gun as a gift it must go through an FFL in IN and then to an FFL here?
    Having a permit could save you a purchace waiting period in most states, but has no bearing on transfers.
    But IF you had ANY permit its likely that Iowa and Indiana would honor it.
    Many folks get a non-residend Utah or Florida permit because of thier broad acceptance.

    You and others in the service usually have extra options of residency,,, navylcdr does as I did when I served.
    You are on duty in nebraska. you are counted as a resident for purchachacing guns there.
    You also have a state of perminant residence, maybe that is where you lived before you joined the service.
    Maybe that was your folks house, You might still have stuff in your old room there.
    Maybe that house is in Indiana. If it is, then you can go to Indiana and buy or recieve a gun there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bandman87 View Post
    Thanks for all the great info and not to worry about carrying my own firearm out there. I drive a hatchback with no "trunk" but I will have it secured in a lockbox with the pistol disassembled. It's a springfield xd 40 so it comes apart very easily
    As to your drive,,, In Nebraska you can OC and car carry as long as its clearly visible,, taped to your forehead or on the dashboard.
    go to the SE corner and enter Mossouri, you can still OC and car carry same as before.
    Again go to the SE corner and enter tennessee, you can still OC and car carry as before.
    Now drive north to Indiana, but stop before the border and properly stow your fire arm... see, that was easy!

    You will probably drive through Illinois,,,
    Before you cross the border, stop, eat, pee, gass up!
    Dont speed, dont draw attention to your self, dont stop anywhere for anything except an emergancy!
    Dont tell ANY ONE!! that you have a gun stored in your car!!! ANY ONE!!!
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 10-17-2012 at 04:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Respectfully, Grapeshot, it is illegal for even an FFL to sell or transfer a handgun to a resident of another state without sending it to an FFL in the recipient's state of residence. 18 USC 922 (b)(3).

    Bandman87,

    Why type of "receiving" a handgun in IN are you planning, and are you a legal resident of Indiana - meaning by Federal law present in Indiana with an intention of making a home there. A temporary loan of a handgun to you is legal, by Federal law. If you are not a resident of Indiana, though, the permanent transfer of a handgun to you in Indiana in any way, by anyone (other than an inheritance if someone died) violates Federal law.

    Grapeshot was correct - as you travel through states, you can either comply with each state's laws when you are in that state - or you can comply with 18 USC 926A which is referred to as Firearms Owners Protection Act - which basically requires the unloaded handgun and ammunition to be separated from the occupants of the vehicle either locked in an exterior compartment such as trunk, or without a trunk in a locked container. Interior compartments such as glovebox or center console are not allowed, even if locked.
    According to my training, I can sell a handgun to a military member as long as the State he is in is his home State or the one in which he is currently "permanently" stationed. He is considered a resident of both States. I don't know if this applies in this case, just thought I'd throw this qualification out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    There is a huge difference between Home of Record state (sometimes referred to as state of permanent residence) and state of residence for firearms transactions. The two have nothing to do with each other and are not interchangeable. 27 CFR 478.11 defines state of residency for firearms transactions as presence in a state with the intention of maintaining a home there and/or having permanent orders to a state. No where is Home of Record or state from which a service member entered the service in the definition. No where in the definition is having a driver's license, paying taxes or being registered to vote mentioned. The definition limits state of residence on to the present - nothing in the past counts. I have a driver's license from Wyoming, I pay taxes in Wyoming (or should I say don't pay taxes). Wyoming is my home of record state, where I entered the military from 28 years ago. It would be completely illegal and a Federal felony for me to claim Wyoming as a state of residence for the purposes of firearms transactions because I have not been present in Wyoming with an intention of maintaining a home there for 24 years. I can visit family in Wyoming while on leave, but that does not make it a legal state of residence for firearms transactions. At one time I had orders to Connecticut and lived in Massachusetts and commuted daily between the two to go to work. During that time, I was a resident of both Connecticut and Massachusetts for firearms transactions - but not Wyoming, even though I had a Wyoming driver's license and listed Wyoming for tax purposes and was registered to vote in Wyoming, because I had no presence in Wyoming with the intention of making a home there.
    The exact way my training puts it is that the State from which a person entered the service is his residence if he intends to return. Everyone, with few exceptions, "intends to return." There is very little reason not to so "intend." PCS orders establishes the current State also as a residence. If the State I am in qualifies as either, I can sell the handgun.

    The training further goes on to say that if a person maintains a residence in two States, living part-time in each, as long as either one of the two is the State in which the transaction occurs, I can sell the handgun. This training comes from the EOP (authored by AAFES, an instrumentality of the federal government) that is in effect throughout the 50 United States. I cannot believe that an attorney has not only vetted this rule in the light of federal law, but likely wrote the precise words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    There is a huge difference between Home of Record state (sometimes referred to as state of permanent residence) and state of residence for firearms transactions. The two have nothing to do with each other and are not interchangeable. 27 CFR 478.11 defines state of residency for firearms transactions as presence in a state with the intention of maintaining a home there and/or having permanent orders to a state. No where is Home of Record or state from which a service member entered the service in the definition. No where in the definition is having a driver's license, paying taxes or being registered to vote mentioned. The definition limits state of residence on to the present - nothing in the past counts. I have a driver's license from Wyoming, I pay taxes in Wyoming (or should I say don't pay taxes). Wyoming is my home of record state, where I entered the military from 28 years ago. It would be completely illegal and a Federal felony for me to claim Wyoming as a state of residence for the purposes of firearms transactions because I have not been present in Wyoming with an intention of maintaining a home there for 24 years. I can visit family in Wyoming while on leave, but that does not make it a legal state of residence for firearms transactions. At one time I had orders to Connecticut and lived in Massachusetts and commuted daily between the two to go to work. During that time, I was a resident of both Connecticut and Massachusetts for firearms transactions - but not Wyoming, even though I had a Wyoming driver's license and listed Wyoming for tax purposes and was registered to vote in Wyoming, because I had no presence in Wyoming with the intention of making a home there.
    Well I was considering enlisting for awhile, and still am, so I'll ask the question Navy

    If I maintained my state of record as Washington with every entention of returning to Washington the minute my enlistment was up, does Washington count as my state of residence for firearm transactions? even if I were say stationed in Florida? And how does the government audit such claims of residency? or do they not even bother?
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Well I was considering enlisting for awhile, and still am, so I'll ask the question Navy

    If I maintained my state of record as Washington with every entention of returning to Washington the minute my enlistment was up, does Washington count as my state of residence for firearm transactions? even if I were say stationed in Florida? And how does the government audit such claims of residency? or do they not even bother?
    According to my training, yes. Also, the State to which you are "permanently" assigned is considered your residence. You could be sold a handgun in either State (assuming no other disqualifications).

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Besides the military orders, which stand alone - there are two requirements in the Federal definition that must be met simultaneously to reside in a state: "presence" AND "intention of making a home there". So, you enter the military from Washington. You get orders to Florida. You move all of your stuff to Florida. You get an apartment in Florida. You leave nothing behind in Washington. This is the way probably 90% of people in the military move, they take everything with them. If they maintain ownership of a house somewhere - they usually rent it out. So, after you move all your stuff to Florida, you rent your house in Washington to someone else so that it becomes unavailable for you to live in.... exactly what "presence" do you maintain in Washington that you currently "intend to make home" in? Answer..none. If you return to Washington on leave you are no different that a person visiting Washington to see Mount Ranier. You must obtain temporary lodging. Whatever clothes you need to wear you bring with you. Whatever transportation you use must either come with you, or you must rent or borrow a car. You maintain no "presence" in Washington. Sure, you might have intent to return here to live after the military - but you do not meet the presence requirement. Now - if you have a home here that you keep reserved for your residence and you come back and actually live in that home for two weeks out of the year on leave - sure, those two weeks could be considered residency because you have maintained both a "presence" and "intent". 90% of military members, however, intend to live where they are stationed or nearby, while they are stationed there. Now, you present a Washington driver's license and list Washington as a state of residence on the form 4473 with a Washington address, the ATF will very likely never be able to or desire to question whether Washington was your current state of residence at the time of the transaction - then it becomes a matter of integrity and whether or not you are willing to lie on the form 4473 and commit a Federal felony in order to purchase a firearm.
    Again, do you suppose that the regulation has not been vetted (or even written) by a lawyer? I will follow the EOP and my training. If Ohio is either of the States I have described earlier, I will sell the handgun. Period.

    Moving on.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Since their is no such thing as an open carry permit,,
    I have to wonder, what kind of legal documentation you currently have!
    clue... anybody can open carry in Nebraska...
    --snip--
    Well...that's not really the case.

    Omaha has a separate set of rules. If you want to OC there you gotta spend some money, register your gun and jump through some hoops to get a special permit/card. Yes, it appears that this is violation of state preemption, but no one has sued them yet.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...Carry-in-Omaha
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Since their is no such thing as an open carry permit,,
    I have to wonder, what kind of legal documentation you currently have!
    clue... anybody can open carry in Nebraska...



    I cant think of any documentation you could need that a man in the service would not already have.



    Having a permit could save you a purchace waiting period in most states, but has no bearing on transfers.
    But IF you had ANY permit its likely that Iowa and Indiana would honor it.
    Many folks get a non-residend Utah or Florida permit because of thier broad acceptance.

    You and others in the service usually have extra options of residency,,, navylcdr does as I did when I served.
    You are on duty in nebraska. you are counted as a resident for purchachacing guns there.
    You also have a state of perminant residence, maybe that is where you lived before you joined the service.
    Maybe that was your folks house, You might still have stuff in your old room there.
    Maybe that house is in Indiana. If it is, then you can go to Indiana and buy or recieve a gun there.



    As to your drive,,, In Nebraska you can OC and car carry as long as its clearly visible,, taped to your forehead or on the dashboard.
    go to the SE corner and enter Mossouri, you can still OC and car carry same as before.
    Again go to the SE corner and enter tennessee, you can still OC and car carry as before.
    Now drive north to Indiana, but stop before the border and properly stow your fire arm... see, that was easy!

    You will probably drive through Illinois,,,
    Before you cross the border, stop, eat, pee, gass up!
    Dont speed, dont draw attention to your self, dont stop anywhere for anything except an emergancy!
    Dont tell ANY ONE!! that you have a gun stored in your car!!! ANY ONE!!!
    As to the OC Omaha has different regulations and to OC there you have to have a OC permit and register the gun. $15 for each 30 total. And thanks for the trip advice but I'm not going to go that far out of my way just to OC. I'll just store it and bring it out at the range there in In

  16. #16
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Oh well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bandman87 View Post
    As to the OC Omaha has different regulations and to OC there you have to have a OC permit and register the gun. $15 for each 30 total. And thanks for the trip advice but I'm not going to go that far out of my way just to OC. I'll just store it and bring it out at the range there in In
    I done screwed up right there in the first line, I didnt know about omaha, and it was already brought to my attention,,, So, sorry about that!

    An excellent place to look up stuff like that is "handgunlaw.us",,, and I have been trying to log on, but
    it locks up everytime Ive tried for the last couple days, I dont know why...
    why dont you go there, click on nebraska to see if it works for you, and how good the info is, then let me know here?
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

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    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  17. #17
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    Cooment on an earlier comment. I believe TN is like IN, OK (after 1 Nov), CN, NY (and about 13? other states)...if you have a license to carry, you may carry openly or concealed. If you do not have a license to carry, you may not carry at all.

    Be very careful in IL. It is almost as bad (or maybe should say, is as bad) as possession is in NY is for a non-resident..be sure whatever you have is locked up in a case...let no LE search you vehicle without a search warrent, ever. Federal law will protect you there, but in NY FOPA is an "affirmative defence" (Means you may be charged anyway, even if you will get off the charge)

    Read the info here on OCDO and at Handgunlaw.us for each and every state you plan to pass through.

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