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Thread: Murder Rates: United States vs. Europe Argument

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Murder Rates: United States vs. Europe Argument

    All too often enough, whenever I am "debating" my extremely pro-gun stance with anti's, I get the whole, "Europe has strict gun control and the murder rates over there are really low compared to the US" argument thrown at me. While I do have some normal counterarguments to this, I am wondering if anyone here has any they'd like to share?

    Thanks is advance.

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    Regular Member Cubex DE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    All too often enough, whenever I am "debating" my extremely pro-gun stance with anti's, I get the whole, "Europe has strict gun control and the murder rates over there are really low compared to the US" argument thrown at me. While I do have some normal counterarguments to this, I am wondering if anyone here has any they'd like to share?

    Thanks is advance.
    This is because Europe reports their crime rates differently.

    In the United States, we report all crimes, regardless of arrests made or convictions. The UK only reports crimes where a suspect is convicted of the crime. So really, they are comparing apples to oranges.

    The UK actually has a much higher rate of violent crimes being committed than the US does. They just report them as "incidents" instead of crimes.
    Jesus thought it was more important to be armed than well dressed:

    Then said He unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his
    scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.~Luke 22:36

    (Emphasis mine.)

    (Note that the word "garment" here refers to an outer cloak, equivalent to today's sport coats or
    suit jackets in that they both provided warmth and conveyed a certain level of sophistication.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by xaviar007 View Post
    Population is also much lower then the US. They have more stabings per capita compared to the US.
    This one is good, and accurate as far as I know.


    Another is simply that any murder victim or violent crime victim deserved the chance to defend himself. As Deanimator says in his signature line: Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

    Lets say a woman is held hostage in a failed robbery. The government will deploy a platoon of cops, complete with snipers. Now, how is it that her life was so value-less that she was denied the right to carry a gun to defend herself, but suddenly her life is so valuable to warrant that police response. The logical fallacy is that her life only became valuable and worth preserving after she became a victim.

    Same thought extends to the whole of the criminal justice system. How can one justify the vast expense of a murder investigation for the death of someone whose life was so lacking in value that they were not permitted the means to preserve it at the time of the attack? Why imprison a murderer at all? To prevent him from killing another value-less person? Come on.
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-18-2012 at 05:40 PM.
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    The most important argument for me is the discussion of freedom vs security. They have a very direct relationship. There are things the government can do, things they want to do, that will drastically decrease crime rate. I personally have sat in a conference where a DHS representative basically blamed the victims in the columbine shooting because , according to him, DHS wants to have permission to place armed soldiers in schools but the people won't go along with it. He went on to explain the sheep vs wolf vs sheepdog analogy. His contempt for the sheep was palpable and revolting.
    Last edited by twoskinsonemanns; 10-19-2012 at 08:22 AM.
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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    The most important argument for me is the discussion of freedom vs security. They have a very direct relationship. There are things the government can do, things they want to do, that will drastically decrease crime rate. I personally have sat in a conference where a DHS representative basically blamed the victims in the columbine shooting because , according to him, DHS wants to have permission to place armed soldiers in schools but the people won't go along with it. He went on to explain the sheep vs wolf vs sheepdog analogy. His contempt for the sheep was palpable and revolting.
    Personally, I am a sheepdog that makes a wolf want to run (often the sheep take me for a wolf). This person, as described as a DHS Rep., with an anus in his cranium is a wolf in sheepdog disguise and needs to be removed.
    Last edited by OldCurlyWolf; 10-19-2012 at 05:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    The most important argument for me is the discussion of freedom vs security. They have a very direct relationship. There are things the government can do, things they want to do, that will drastically decrease crime rate. I personally have sat in a conference where a DHS representative basically blamed the victims in the columbine shooting because , according to him, DHS wants to have permission to place armed soldiers in schools but the people won't go along with it. He went on to explain the sheep vs wolf vs sheepdog analogy. His contempt for the sheep was palpable and revolting.
    Well, yes.

    But, you understand the OPer is asking for arguments for other people, right?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Historically, our murder rate with Zyklon B and crew served weapons is a lot lower...
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member Cubex DE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xaviar007 View Post
    Population is also much lower then the US. They have more stabings per capita compared to the US.
    The OP is comparing per capita numbers, so the population argument wouldn't apply.

    To give an example of what I was saying earlier, imagine if someone broke into your house, threatened you with a gun, stole your stuff, and left. Or, imagine someone robbed a convenience store using a gun. Both of these guys get away. In the US, we would report both of these as gun crimes, even if we didn't catch or convict the criminals, but the UK wouldn't report them as such. They are merely "incidents," not "crimes," until someone is arrested and convicted. Now think about how abhorrent police response times are, and how hard it would be to track someone down using only video footage after they've already left. 3D facial recognition systems only find criminals in Hollywood. It's not surprising that most gun crimes in the UK don't result in arrests or convictions.

    Source: Fear in Britain, Gallant, Hills, Kopel, Independence Institute, July 18, 2000.

    To top it off, the cops have admitted that they lie about gun crime all the freakin' time to promote tourism.

    Source: Crime Figures a Sham, Say Police, Daily Telegraph, April 1, 1996.

    If we compare the number of convictions in the US for violent crimes to the number of convictions in the UK, the numbers make a lot more sense. In 2008, Britain had a violent crime rate nearly five times higher than the United States (446 vs. 2034 per 100,000).

    Source: The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S., Daily Mail, July 3, 2009, citing a joint report of the European Commission and United Nations.

    Ironically, firearm use in crimes in the UK has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned.

    Source: Weapons sell for just 50 as suspects and victims grow ever younger, The Times, August 24, 2007.

    Go to GunFacts.info for more.
    Last edited by Cubex DE; 10-20-2012 at 03:36 PM.
    Jesus thought it was more important to be armed than well dressed:

    Then said He unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his
    scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.~Luke 22:36

    (Emphasis mine.)

    (Note that the word "garment" here refers to an outer cloak, equivalent to today's sport coats or
    suit jackets in that they both provided warmth and conveyed a certain level of sophistication.)

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    This: http://www2.dse.unibo.it/zanella/papers/crime-EP.pdf research study is Italian.

    It compares Violent Crime (not just murder) and Property Crime,,,in the EU, UK and US 1970 to 2010.

    You will be surprised, but then you might not. lots of graphs

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    ere comes my racist (but accurate) post so be prepared......

    In America blacks are 13% of the population and hispanics are now 15% of the population.

    Total white population is about 64% in America.

    If you look at the homicide and violent crime rates among whites in America it is the same as Canada, lower than australia and lower than the white populations of western european countries like england, france, germany, norway, sweeden, belgium.

    Simply put, if those countries had blacks and mexicans their crime rates would be MUCH higher.

    Violent crime rates among whites in America is basically the same among white Europeans.
    Yep bigoted and missing much vital information. Ridiculous belief hinting that some people are genetically inclined to be criminals, once proposed by BerettaLady, which I summarily destroyed with other statistics, which conveniently don't fit your chauvinistic, hypocritical, untruthful assertions.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Yep bigoted and missing much vital information. Ridiculous belief hinting that some people are genetically inclined to be criminals, once proposed by BerettaLady, which I summarily destroyed with other statistics, which conveniently don't fit your chauvinistic, hypocritical, untruthful assertions.
    Information (data) not provided but alluded to does not invalidate the claim. The premise is not unsound. What is unsound is the inference that more blacks and Mexicans in Norway ect. would show a similar increase in crime rates in Norway ect. as is the case here in America. Until it happens in Norway ect. it can not logically be inferred that it will happen in Norway ect.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Information (data) not provided but alluded to does not invalidate the claim. The premise is not unsound. What is unsound is the inference that more blacks and Mexicans in Norway ect. would show a similar increase in crime rates in Norway ect. as is the case here in America. Until it happens in Norway ect. it can not logically be inferred that it will happen in Norway ect.
    Statistics don't lie but liars use statistics.

    Something like 95% of all criminals in the U.S. prisons are from single family (mother homes) this happens equally between the black and white prison population. So genetics has nothing to do with it.

    If CA patriot were to study the statistics further without stopping at what satisfies his bigoted view he would see his statistics are meaningless without more info. You also have to take in laws that target minorities, cops who target minorities and a population who may be more forgiving of whites over minorities.

    For anyone to suggest that any human is genetically predisposed to crime because of the melatonin level he possesses is F'ing ridiculous to me. Just like Berreta's ladies inference that American Blacks were bred this way.

    Since science have proven we all are decedents of an African Women, do we all carry this supposed miscreant gene?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    The UK has a violent crime rate 4-5 times higher than the U.S. That shuts some antis up.

    And then there's that whole "what is the real purpose of the Second Amendment?" thing. It's important to get people to understand the Second Amendment isn't about hunting or target shooting.

    During World War II, the British government put ads in U.S. magazines asking U.S. citizens to send their personal guns over because they didn't have enough. After the war, the British government destroyed those guns and went back to disarming its population. The British better hope history doesn't repeat itself.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Statistics don't lie but liars use statistics.

    Something like 95% of all criminals in the U.S. prisons are from single family (mother homes) this happens equally between the black and white prison population. So genetics has nothing to do with it.

    If CA patriot were to study the statistics further without stopping at what satisfies his bigoted view he would see his statistics are meaningless without more info. You also have to take in laws that target minorities, cops who target minorities and a population who may be more forgiving of whites over minorities.

    For anyone to suggest that any human is genetically predisposed to crime because of the melatonin level he possesses is F'ing ridiculous to me. Just like Berreta's ladies inference that American Blacks were bred this way.

    Since science have proven we all are decedents of an African Women, do we all carry this supposed miscreant gene?
    Statistics can show anything the gatherer of the statistical data wishes to show.

    Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable. - Mark Twain
    I do not hold the view that genetics, other than the human genetic code, has any bearing on a human's lawfulness or criminality. However, cultural and socio-environmental affects are a different matter.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I don't know where this idea has come from that England does not have blacks, they do and they always have. In fact they had blacks before America had blacks living here. The percentage may not be as high, but they have always been there.

    From what I can find about 2% of the population is black in the British Kingdom.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 10-30-2012 at 11:24 PM.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    Aww, looks like someone got their feelings hurt and had to resort to the name calling.

    I suggest you look in the mirror to see the bigot.
    Nope my feelings are not hurt at all.

    I will apologize for not clarifying the first part as a separate quote and that it wasn't pointed at you. But to show that statistics like OC for Me brought out can be used by anybody to show anything.

    The second part were you are using statistics to justify your bigoted views I'll stand by.

    Am I bigoted ? Yes I am , I am bigoted toward those who feel that one way or another somehow their genetic make up makes them superior to others, regardless of who are making that claim. There are bigots in all ethnic backgrounds.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Instead of correlating their murder rates with only gun freedoms, how about correlating them against policies and cultural norms.

    less drug control = less crime.
    less adult prostitution control = less crime.
    less racial and nationalistic bigotry = less crime.
    [strikeout]less capitalism and more socialism = less crime.[/strikeout](*EDIT: withdrawn, didn't think that one through...)

    It's not just about less guns.

    BTW, a "murder" stat doesn't mean much unless it factors in the weapons used in all of them. It means a lot more when you factor in whether or not the victim was armed or unarmed, and whether the victim being unarmed was required by law.
    Last edited by MAC702; 11-01-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Nope my feelings are not hurt at all.

    I will apologize for not clarifying the first part as a separate quote and that it wasn't pointed at you. But to show that statistics like OC for Me brought out can be used by anybody to show anything.

    The second part were you are using statistics to justify your bigoted views I'll stand by.

    Am I bigoted ? Yes I am , I am bigoted toward those who feel that one way or another somehow their genetic make up makes them superior to others, regardless of who are making that claim. There are bigots in all ethnic backgrounds.
    It's what's called an "uncomfortable truth". It has nothing to do with "genetic make up" and the other poster has even pointed this out, yet you keep returning to this to try to make a non-point. His statement that there being more blacks/hispanics in europe would cause more crime isn't based in any sort of facts. However, it's not untrue that they make up a larger portion of crime commiters in America, regardless of what the reasons are. It's also a fact that per capita there is also a higher percentage of christians in prisons than atheists (when compared to christian vs atheist population)...doesn't necessarily mean believing in a god makes you more violent..but it does put a damper on the argument that atheists are immoral.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Instead of correlating their murder rates with only gun freedoms, how about correlating them against policies and cultural norms.

    less drug control = less crime.
    less adult prostitution control = less crime.
    less racial and nationalistic bigotry = less crime.
    less capitalism and more socialism = less crime.

    It's not just about less guns.

    BTW, a "murder" stat doesn't mean much unless it factors in the weapons used in all of them. It means a lot more when you factor in whether or not the victim was armed or unarmed, and whether the victim being unarmed was required by law.


    Of course, this could have been a typographical error.....I hope.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    It's what's called an "uncomfortable truth". It has nothing to do with "genetic make up" and the other poster has even pointed this out, yet you keep returning to this to try to make a non-point. His statement that there being more blacks/hispanics in europe would cause more crime isn't based in any sort of facts. However, it's not untrue that they make up a larger portion of crime commiters in America, regardless of what the reasons are. It's also a fact that per capita there is also a higher percentage of christians in prisons than atheists (when compared to christian vs atheist population)...doesn't necessarily mean believing in a god makes you more violent..but it does put a damper on the argument that atheists are immoral.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    Other than just spewing the usual cries about racism and bigotry because you have no logical answer, why would you say I am bigoted ?

    The facts are the facts. Hispanics and blacks have much much higher rates of crime than whites.

    If it makes you feel better to call me a bigot because I point out these facts then so be it.

    I never mentioned anything about genetic superiority but you keep bringing it up over and over.

    Maybe you have some insecurities about your own genetic makeup and you are projecting them onto other people.

    Either way, blacks and hispanics are more criminally active in America.
    I countered your arguments with other statistics that show your statistics are meaningless without further research, if you want to simply stop at Blacks and Mexicans commit more crimes without further research into cause and effect that says something about you . Also the ridiculous notion that crime is lower in Europe because they are white.........ya right you don't think you are superior...

    CA Patriot wrote
    Simply put, if those countries had blacks and mexicans their crime rates would be MUCH higher.
    Who is it that wants to move out of their neighborhood because of the color of skin of their neighbors?
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 11-01-2012 at 10:05 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Of course, this could have been a typographical error.....I hope.
    I hesitated on that one, but my thinking there is that there will be more crime when there are "haves" and "have nots."

    Part of being successful through your own endeavors is now having to protect what you have from those who choose not to work for it.

    When everybody is poor (socialism), there are fewer people to steal from.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I hesitated on that one, but my thinking there is that there will be more crime when there are "haves" and "have nots."

    Part of being successful through your own endeavors is now having to protect what you have from those who choose not to work for it.

    When everybody is poor (socialism), there are fewer people to steal from.
    I look to the UK as an example of less capitalism and more socialism reducing crime.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I hesitated on that one, but my thinking there is that there will be more crime when there are "haves" and "have nots."

    Part of being successful through your own endeavors is now having to protect what you have from those who choose not to work for it.

    When everybody is poor (socialism), there are fewer people to steal from.

    Physical evidence refutes that. Where everyone is poor the crime rates are the highest and most of that is the poor stealing from the poor.

    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I look to the UK as an example of less capitalism and more socialism reducing crime.
    Again, you can't just look at ONE factor as a reason for a societal norm. I also don't follow the crime stats in the UK.

    And I'm also guessing this is the LEAST impactful reason on my list, and the only one I might be wrong about. I'm willing to discuss it. You actually didn't even address my supporting argument, which may or may not have merit.

    But, please, don't use a "rolling eyes" emoticon. There's no need for that. Unless you really are rolling your eyes at me, in which case, we have a different problem.
    Last edited by MAC702; 11-01-2012 at 12:15 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    Physical evidence refutes that. Where everyone is poor the crime rates are the highest and most of that is the poor stealing from the poor.

    Good point, but I wonder how that expands into an entire nation's wealth status. Honestly, it's probably too complicated for me to have attempted. I should withdraw that statement from my list, so the rest of it can stand unchallenged.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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