Murder Rates: United States vs. Europe Argument

ADobbs1989 · Oct 31, 2012

sudden valley gunner said:
Nope my feelings are not hurt at all.

I will apologize for not clarifying the first part as a separate quote and that it wasn't pointed at you. But to show that statistics like OC for Me brought out can be used by anybody to show anything.

The second part were you are using statistics to justify your bigoted views I'll stand by.

Am I bigoted ? Yes I am , I am bigoted toward those who feel that one way or another somehow their genetic make up makes them superior to others, regardless of who are making that claim. There are bigots in all ethnic backgrounds.

It's what's called an "uncomfortable truth". It has nothing to do with "genetic make up" and the other poster has even pointed this out, yet you keep returning to this to try to make a non-point. His statement that there being more blacks/hispanics in europe would cause more crime isn't based in any sort of facts. However, it's not untrue that they make up a larger portion of crime commiters in America, regardless of what the reasons are. It's also a fact that per capita there is also a higher percentage of christians in prisons than atheists (when compared to christian vs atheist population)...doesn't necessarily mean believing in a god makes you more violent..but it does put a damper on the argument that atheists are immoral.

Ca Patriot · Nov 1, 2012

sudden valley gunner said:
The second part were you are using statistics to justify your bigoted views I'll stand by.

Am I bigoted ? Yes I am , I am bigoted toward those who feel that one way or another somehow their genetic make up makes them superior to others, regardless of who are making that claim. There are bigots in all ethnic backgrounds.

Other than just spewing the usual cries about racism and bigotry because you have no logical answer, why would you say I am bigoted ?

The facts are the facts. Hispanics and blacks have much much higher rates of crime than whites.

If it makes you feel better to call me a bigot because I point out these facts then so be it.

I never mentioned anything about genetic superiority but you keep bringing it up over and over.

Maybe you have some insecurities about your own genetic makeup and you are projecting them onto other people.

Either way, blacks and hispanics are more criminally active in America.

OC for ME · Nov 1, 2012

MAC702 said:
Instead of correlating their murder rates with only gun freedoms, how about correlating them against policies and cultural norms.

less drug control = less crime.
less adult prostitution control = less crime.
less racial and nationalistic bigotry = less crime.
less capitalism and more socialism = less crime.

It's not just about less guns.

BTW, a "murder" stat doesn't mean much unless it factors in the weapons used in all of them. It means a lot more when you factor in whether or not the victim was armed or unarmed, and whether the victim being unarmed was required by law.

:shocker::banghead::shocker::banghead::shocker::banghead::shocker:

Of course, this could have been a typographical error.....I hope.:uhoh:

sudden valley gunner · Nov 1, 2012

ADobbs1989 said:
It's what's called an "uncomfortable truth". It has nothing to do with "genetic make up" and the other poster has even pointed this out, yet you keep returning to this to try to make a non-point. His statement that there being more blacks/hispanics in europe would cause more crime isn't based in any sort of facts. However, it's not untrue that they make up a larger portion of crime commiters in America, regardless of what the reasons are. It's also a fact that per capita there is also a higher percentage of christians in prisons than atheists (when compared to christian vs atheist population)...doesn't necessarily mean believing in a god makes you more violent..but it does put a damper on the argument that atheists are immoral.

Ca Patriot said:
Other than just spewing the usual cries about racism and bigotry because you have no logical answer, why would you say I am bigoted ?

The facts are the facts. Hispanics and blacks have much much higher rates of crime than whites.

If it makes you feel better to call me a bigot because I point out these facts then so be it.

I never mentioned anything about genetic superiority but you keep bringing it up over and over.

Maybe you have some insecurities about your own genetic makeup and you are projecting them onto other people.

Either way, blacks and hispanics are more criminally active in America.

I countered your arguments with other statistics that show your statistics are meaningless without further research, if you want to simply stop at Blacks and Mexicans commit more crimes without further research into cause and effect that says something about you . Also the ridiculous notion that crime is lower in Europe because they are white.........ya right you don't think you are superior...

CA Patriot wrote

Simply put, if those countries had blacks and mexicans their crime rates would be MUCH higher.

Who is it that wants to move out of their neighborhood because of the color of skin of their neighbors?

MAC702 · Nov 1, 2012

OC for ME said:
Of course, this could have been a typographical error.....I hope.:uhoh:

I hesitated on that one, but my thinking there is that there will be more crime when there are "haves" and "have nots."

Part of being successful through your own endeavors is now having to protect what you have from those who choose not to work for it.

When everybody is poor (socialism), there are fewer people to steal from.

OC for ME · Nov 1, 2012

MAC702 said:
I hesitated on that one, but my thinking there is that there will be more crime when there are "haves" and "have nots."

Part of being successful through your own endeavors is now having to protect what you have from those who choose not to work for it.

When everybody is poor (socialism), there are fewer people to steal from.

I look to the UK as an example of less capitalism and more socialism reducing crime.

OldCurlyWolf · Nov 1, 2012

MAC702 said:
I hesitated on that one, but my thinking there is that there will be more crime when there are "haves" and "have nots."

Part of being successful through your own endeavors is now having to protect what you have from those who choose not to work for it.

When everybody is poor (socialism), there are fewer people to steal from.

Physical evidence refutes that. Where everyone is poor the crime rates are the highest and most of that is the poor stealing from the poor.

MAC702 · Nov 1, 2012

OC for ME said:
I look to the UK as an example of less capitalism and more socialism reducing crime.

Again, you can't just look at ONE factor as a reason for a societal norm. I also don't follow the crime stats in the UK.

And I'm also guessing this is the LEAST impactful reason on my list, and the only one I might be wrong about. I'm willing to discuss it. You actually didn't even address my supporting argument, which may or may not have merit.

But, please, don't use a "rolling eyes" emoticon. There's no need for that. Unless you really are rolling your eyes at me, in which case, we have a different problem.

MAC702 · Nov 1, 2012

OldCurlyWolf said:
Physical evidence refutes that. Where everyone is poor the crime rates are the highest and most of that is the poor stealing from the poor.

Good point, but I wonder how that expands into an entire nation's wealth status. Honestly, it's probably too complicated for me to have attempted. I should withdraw that statement from my list, so the rest of it can stand unchallenged.

MAC702 · Nov 1, 2012

Upon further review, I will withdraw it. I'm not even sure what I was thinking at the time. Hell, I've lived and worked in places like Papua New Guinea. Very few guns, lots of poor, lazy people, and lots of crimes, including murder on streets for pocket change.

Sorry for the confusion. I'd better get another cup of coffee.

OC for ME · Nov 1, 2012

MAC702 said:
Again, you can't just look at ONE factor as a reason for a societal norm. I also don't follow the crime stats in the UK.

And I'm also guessing this is the LEAST impactful reason on my list, and the only one I might be wrong about. I'm willing to discuss it. You actually didn't even address my supporting argument, which may or may not have merit.

But, please, don't use a "rolling eyes" emoticon. There's no need for that. Unless you really are rolling your eyes at me, in which case, we have a different problem.

The Roll Eyes emoticon has in parens (Sarcastic). I placed the emoticon at the end of my statement not at the end of any of your statements. Unless there is a different application for that emoticon, I believe that I was indicating that I was being sarcastic. At the very least I would be rolling eyes at my statement.

If the gun were never invented we would still have crime, prostitution, racial bigotry, nationalistic bigotry, and capitalism or socialism. If the gun is nothing more than a tool (as I think we here on OCDO advocate continually) it can not logically be included in the discussion (or should not be at the very least). If a citizen injects the gun as the focus, or a prime component, of the discussion of your three items then that citizen is disingenuous and appealing to emotion. They know their argument is without merit.

less drug control = less crime. I agree
less adult prostitution control = less crime. I agree, provisionally. I'll research Nevada's crime statistics to determine if that is the case. I'm not looking to be contrary it does seem logical that your contention is valid.
less racial and nationalistic bigotry = less crime. I agree, provisionally. I will do more research to determine if your premise is sound and supported by historical fact.

OC for ME · Nov 1, 2012

less racial and nationalistic bigotry = less crime. I agree, provisionally. I will do more research to determine if your premise is sound and supported by historical fact.

Edit: I agree, theoretically. It would be nice if "less bigotry" resulted in less crime. Anecdotal evidence indactes that that is not the case. After further consideration I'm not sure I understand the term "nationalist bigotry" when discussing crime within a national boundary.

MAC702 · Nov 1, 2012

OC for ME said:
The Roll Eyes emoticon has in parens (Sarcastic). I placed the emoticon at the end of my statement not at the end of any of your statements. Unless there is a different application for that emoticon, I believe that I was indicating that I was being sarcastic. At the very least I would be rolling eyes at my statement.

If the gun were never invented we would still have crime, prostitution, racial bigotry, nationalistic bigotry, and capitalism or socialism. If the gun is nothing more than a tool (as I think we here on OCDO advocate continually) it can not logically be included in the discussion (or should not be at the very least). If a citizen injects the gun as the focus, or a prime component, of the discussion of your three items then that citizen is disingenuous and appealing to emotion. They know their argument is without merit.

I accept your usage of the emoticon. I've too often seen it used as an insult. Its ambiguity irks me.

I agree with your entire second paragraph, just as we had these problems (ignoring economic systems) before our weapons extended past our reach.

eye95 · Nov 1, 2012

When everyone is poor under socialism, it is because the government has stolen and wasted everything of value. To me, that is a huge crime rate. Of course, since the government compiles those stats, they will leave out their own crimes.

The Trickster · Nov 9, 2012

Thanks for all of the responses. Arguing with the anti's can be a real headache.

I usually emphasize the fact that correlation does not imply causation. For example, our prisons are filled with a disproportionately high number of black folk than white folk, when you take into consideration the actual total number of the population of blacks and whites as a whole in our nation. Does that mean that blacks are more inclined to break the law? I don't think so, and neither will most anti's.

There's also the fact that many of these countires, including England, already had low murder rates even before they adopted their strict gun control policies.

In the end, I would ALWAYS rather have quasi-dangerous freedom over peaceful authoritarianism.

DangerClose · Nov 9, 2012

OC for ME said:
I look to the UK as an example of less capitalism and more socialism reducing crime.

For those who missed my post, and for those who miss the eyeroll above, the UK has nearly 5 times the amount of violent crime as the U.S. does.

KBCraig · Nov 9, 2012

The Trickster said:
In the end, I would ALWAYS rather have quasi-dangerous freedom over peaceful authoritarianism.

Exactly. If you want peaceful obedience to the law, go to Singapore.

Leave your chewing gum at home, though!

Phoenix David · Nov 10, 2012

Well so far Europe has about 125 million murdered since the 1900's. The US about 15 million

sudden valley gunner · Nov 10, 2012

Phoenix David said:
Well so far Europe has about 125 million murdered since the 1900's. The US about 15 million

I see what you did there.....

Murder Rates: United States vs. Europe Argument

ADobbs1989

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Ca Patriot

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OC for ME

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sudden valley gunner

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MAC702

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OC for ME

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OldCurlyWolf

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MAC702

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MAC702

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MAC702

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OC for ME

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OC for ME

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MAC702

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eye95

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The Trickster

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sudden valley gunner

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