Opinions on crossdraw for OC

BigDave said:

As stated in my first post I would not, I find with me it is more difficult to draw from, added time to draw and get on target, no longer one smooth motion and the higher likelihood of having your firearm sweep others around you when drawing.
I have trained and continue to train with my firearm at the 3 to 4 o'clock position and it fits me well.

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I have to agree with Dave on all points with this one.

Metalhead47 said:

Try doing a standard draw while sitting in a car with bucket seats, console, seat belt, etc.

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Easy with a 15 degree forward cant.

Cubex DE said:

Easy with a 15 degree forward cant.

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Maybe in a 1972 Chevy pickup with a bench seat and lap belts, but not in the circumstances he just described.

There's no one method that's perfect for all situations. I prefer the standard 3-4 O'clock position for most carry. If driving for long hours that position sucks as it usually interferes with my Seat Belt or vice versa. For long driving trips I merely change to a shoulder holster or a cross draw. Since most threats, when in a car, will approach from the driver's side it's also easier to bring the weapon to the target than having to cross your body.

BTW, what's all the paranoia over "sweeping" in a Self Defense situation? Maybe when handling a firearm in a Gun Shop or at the range but in "combat", all rules are pretty much suspended except rule #1---Stay Alive! Carry a good quality firearm and keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

Sweeping of the innocent is hazard we all should be concerned with and we are responsible for everything that comes out of the barrel, while one may not be criminally charged but a civil suit is a real possibility where one can lose by a preponderance of the evidence.

For many who feel the holster position while sitting in a vehicle is priority one but clearly have not shot from the seated position and out the drivers window, aim shooting is out the window sort of speak and point shooting becomes the only option.
Many experts have said that the most deadly place to be in seated in a car during a gun fight so one has to get out of the car and moving to cover while employing their firearm, holster position as to cross draw, shoulder and standard strong side hip position will determine how well you can get your firearm out and on target while minimizing a threat to the innocents that can be by.

BigDave said:

Sweeping of the innocent is hazard we all should be concerned with and we are responsible for everything that comes out of the barrel, while one may not be criminally charged but a civil suit is a real possibility where one can lose by a preponderance of the evidence.

For many who feel the holster position while sitting in a vehicle is priority one but clearly have not shot from the seated position and out the drivers window, aim shooting is out the window sort of speak and point shooting becomes the only option.
Many experts have said that the most deadly place to be in seated in a car during a gun fight so one has to get out of the car and moving to cover while employing their firearm, holster position as to cross draw, shoulder and standard strong side hip position will determine how well you can get your firearm out and on target while minimizing a threat to the innocents that can be by.

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So... If you don't want to cross carry, don't. As the guy above has said, you can easily eliminate flagging by practicing proper technique. As far as "many experts" go, become one yourself. Form you own opinions based on your experience and ability. Experts are just people who have more experience than the average citizen. There's plenty of people through out history who have cross carried with notable success.

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BigDave said:

Sweeping of the innocent is hazard we all should be concerned with and we are responsible for everything that comes out of the barrel, while one may not be criminally charged but a civil suit is a real possibility where one can lose by a preponderance of the evidence.

For many who feel the holster position while sitting in a vehicle is priority one but clearly have not shot from the seated position and out the drivers window, aim shooting is out the window sort of speak and point shooting becomes the only option.
Many experts have said that the most deadly place to be in seated in a car during a gun fight so one has to get out of the car and moving to cover while employing their firearm, holster position as to cross draw, shoulder and standard strong side hip position will determine how well you can get your firearm out and on target while minimizing a threat to the innocents that can be by.

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Innocents are most at risk when you are shooting, not drawing with your finger off the trigger.

The position while in a car is primarily for long term comfort and access. Some times you have to defend yourself wherever you are. Just because YOU haven't shot from a car doesn't mean that there haven't been hundreds of incidents where others have.

Soemtimes there become so many "rules" that someone carrying a gun will have to do like an airplane pilot. Before drawing their weapon they'll have to "run the checklist".

OrangeIsTrouble said it best. The rest seem to be engaged in "Paralysis by Analysis".

I carry two handguns so one is at crossdraw, the other strongside, and a cane. I don't let anybody I don't know or trust get within the distance that cane can reach. As a police officer I had three attempted gun snatches, two unsuccessful, and the third a very surprised bar patron when he found the gun useless and facing my bug in his face. All three attempts came from behind while I was occupied in a fight, one by a wife, the others by friends of the suspect. One person suffered a fractured wrist, the female suffered a fractured nose. All three with a strong side holster.

Here is the thing I respect Jordan but his opinion is based on well his opinion. I have seen no statistics where more gun grabs are made with crossdraw holsters. The videos of gun grabs I have seen have been with strong side holsters. And most gun grabs that are substantiated are attempts made on law enforcement, not the public. Gun grabs for LAC OCing just really has not been proven to be a problem.

One of the reasons for my depts choice for the M-39 and 59 was the magazine safety. This was the reason the gun grabber in a crowded bar was surprised when he did get the 39 from my holster. He then faced the 1911 from my shoulder holster, concealed under my coat.

While gun grabs are not a statistic worth carrying on about, all of us should be situational aware and be prepared to stop a gun grab. A handgun with a mag safety can be one of those options. If during the struggle the mag can be ejected the gun is useless, but remember useless to both attacker and LAC. I would only rely on this with a bug, or at least a blade handy. The BG will have considerable confusion when the handgun will not work, giving time to counter.

As far as sweeping with the draw learning the proper stance completely eliminates that problem, as well a very natural, very fast draw. It also puts the butt of the gun and angle away from the BG, making it more difficult to grab or even hold the gun in the LAC's holster. Strong side is very easy to defeat by BG if he is close enough just to grasp the hand with his own and hold the gun down in the holster, preventing a draw. That is if the LAC is not smart enough to place his strong foot to the rear to place the gun away from BG, but makes a more complicated draw. Strong side draw is only natural with feet facing BG.

amlevin said:

Innocents are most at risk when you are shooting, not drawing with your finger off the trigger.

The position while in a car is primarily for long term comfort and access. Some times you have to defend yourself wherever you are. Just because YOU haven't shot from a car doesn't mean that there haven't been hundreds of incidents where others have.

Soemtimes there become so many "rules" that someone carrying a gun will have to do like an airplane pilot. Before drawing their weapon they'll have to "run the checklist".

OrangeIsTrouble said it best. The rest seem to be engaged in "Paralysis by Analysis".

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This. And the most likely self defense situation in a car is someone trying to get IN, generally preventing you from getting OUT. Any other scenario and you SHOULD be able to simply use the car to flee rather than abandoning to get into a fight


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Metalhead47 said:

This. And the most likely self defense situation in a car is someone trying to get IN, generally preventing you from getting OUT. Any other scenario and you SHOULD be able to simply use the car to flee rather than abandoning to get into a fight


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The vehicle is probably the best weapon if there is room. A car or truck has more stopping power than a gun.

I feel it is easy to see that if one is fighting from the confines of a vehicle their ability to defend themself is greatly reduced and bullets do and can penetrate sheet metal and glass.

There are great many factors to take into consideration for the best response to a given threat, if one cannot easily speed away from the threat then being inside the vehicle is not the best place to be as you are no longer a moving target but stationary, and your movements are restricted, fighting from inside a vehicle is not an preferred place to defend yourself but noted sometimes we do not have those choices.

My preference as before is still for my firearm to be holstered on my strong side at the 3 o'clock to 4 o'clock position. This also puts my firearm toward the inside of the vehicle leaving my left hand/arm to create some separation and distance while drawing the weapon.

While we practice and train with keeping the finger off the trigger but when in the heat of battle the holster in the strong side position will give added protection from unintentionally harming innocents to include yourself.

Even when on the range shooting and you are standing weak side of someone with a cross draw, they draw it and how comfortable do you feel as the barrel just sweep your legs or possibly side.
The basic rules of firearms safety has been taught as a fail safe, all guns are loaded, never point or sweep across something you do not want to destroy, keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and choose to shoot and know your target and whats beyond it, why do you want to add a possibility for a failure?

BigDave said:

I feel it is easy to see that if one is fighting from the confines of a vehicle their ability to defend themself is greatly reduced and bullets do and can penetrate sheet metal and glass.

There are great many factors to take into consideration for the best response to a given threat, if one cannot easily speed away from the threat then being inside the vehicle is not the best place to be as you are no longer a moving target but stationary, and your movements are restricted, fighting from inside a vehicle is not an preferred place to defend yourself but noted sometimes we do not have those choices.

My preference as before is still for my firearm to be holstered on my strong side at the 3 o'clock to 4 o'clock position. This also puts my firearm toward the inside of the vehicle leaving my left hand/arm to create some separation and distance while drawing the weapon.

While we practice and train with keeping the finger off the trigger but when in the heat of battle the holster in the strong side position will give added protection from unintentionally harming innocents to include yourself.

Even when on the range shooting and you are standing weak side of someone with a cross draw, they draw it and how comfortable do you feel as the barrel just sweep your legs or possibly side.
The basic rules of firearms safety has been taught as a fail safe, all guns are loaded, never point or sweep across something you do not want to destroy, keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and choose to shoot and know your target and whats beyond it, why do you want to add a possibility for a failure?

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Again SASS rules are that crossdraw users must use the crossdraw dance, drawing from a horse stance is a safety violation. Other ranges have this same rule. One IMO should never face an attacker where the firearm is accessible to the BG, which is exactly the case with strong side and a horse stance. If a person turns their strong side away from the BG then the draw becomes not only unnatural, but likely sweeping innocents. IMO it is each persons decision to carry the way they wish, whether it is conventional strong side or crossdraw.

Their gun, their holster, their responsibility, their liability. If somebody tried to tell me how to carry I would tell them to "bugger off".

What is "horse stance"?

jeeper1 said:

What is "horse stance"?

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Standing both feet, and body facing forward feet slightly apart, knees bent slightly. What is a common stance taught by firearms instructors. I was taught to fight and fire from a T stance, week side forward, strong foot to the rear of the week foot, knees slightly bent. It allows for retreat or attack and is much more stable stance. It also makes the firearm less accessible with both strong side and crossdraw carry for a BG. The draw is actually more smooth and direct from crossdraw in this stance. The firearm is also less forward while pointing in this stance(more guarded). A strong side kick has more power from a T stance, yet a forward kick from the weak leg still can be used effectively from the stance. When talking to a suspect that is not violent yet space is needed for safety the officer, or LAC only needs to shove with a pen, kubaton, to move the person back without excessive force. I have used just a clipboard at times to move somebody back when they got close.

Standing both feet, and body facing forward feet slightly apart, knees bent slightly.

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Thank you.

I carry a G 21 in an Uncle Mikes LE Kydex holster in the cross draw 10-11 o'clock position. For me, this works the best at home, in the car, out and about, generally everywhere. Now, for me the reason I carry cross draw is I feel I can better defend against a grab than I could from a side draw position. That's just me, and I can see both sides plus's/minus's arguments for why they carry as they do. The other deciding factor for me is, being right handed and using my shoulder rig, it is basically the same draw motion. Shoulder harness draw IS a cross draw, for a right handed shooter, right? So, regardless of which holster I'm wearing that particular day, the draw I train with remains mostly the same.

Now, with the CZ 82, I only have holsters that are normal draw (currently), which doesn't bother me much, since the CZ doesn't interfere with the G 21's position, and actually would detract from the detection of the G 21, since one is a drop leg, and the other is a belt holster ( both with straps ). So, when I'm wearing both, one, both or the other is going to be noticed, presenting a would-be criminal a dilemma, and then the situation determines the rest.

I don't plan on remaining still either way, and if I have to walk/run away to avoid escalation or taking a life, that would be my first choice. If the situation determines I must draw and shoot, then so be it. My first line of defense is not to place myself in positions where I have no options or an out - that should be everyones primary defense. Brains first, force second, unless the situation is forced right from the beginning, then our training and instincts should take over. So far, in the times I have carried and the possibility of using a firearm presented itself, brains won out over force.

WalkingWolf said:

Again SASS rules are that crossdraw users must use the crossdraw dance, drawing from a horse stance is a safety violation. Other ranges have this same rule.

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On most public ranges today the "draw issue" is moot. Most public ranges do not allow "draw and shoot" except for sanctioned events.

As for most public ranges today, I find myself preferring to pick hours when I am shooting pretty much all alone. Even with all the supervision and rules many are getting just plain scary when it comes to range safety. Reloaders with revolvers especially. "Pooof" then look over and see them pulling the trigger again. Then there's theI" just bought a brand new semi auto crowd" Why is it that everyone seems to think the proper way to chamber a round is to point the weapon at the person next to you then PUSH the slide back???

amlevin said:

On most public ranges today the "draw issue" is moot. Most public ranges do not allow "draw and shoot" except for sanctioned events.

As for most public ranges today, I find myself preferring to pick hours when I am shooting pretty much all alone. Even with all the supervision and rules many are getting just plain scary when it comes to range safety. Reloaders with revolvers especially. "Pooof" then look over and see them pulling the trigger again. Then there's theI" just bought a brand new semi auto crowd" Why is it that everyone seems to think the proper way to chamber a round is to point the weapon at the person next to you then PUSH the slide back???

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Most of the public ranges do have slack rules unless it is a match, government ranges the tightness varies. Most of my time has either been in SASS events or government ranges. Sweeping is a serious issue on a government range, or in a match. I do not go to public ranges, what I see at a public range is absolutely frightening. Shooting clubs is a good way to go for privacy.

Most the crossdraw on a police range is off duty setups, or shoulder holsters. When we qualified even years ago a officer using a shoulder or crossdraw was required to use a T stance on draw. Duty setup was a strongside holster. In winter I wore a 1911 in a shoulder holster, in warmer weather a sterling 22 in a handcuff case, besides the M-39.

WalkingWolf said:

Their gun, their holster, their responsibility, their liability. If somebody tried to tell me how to carry I would tell them to "bugger off".

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+1

Also +1 to you and Citizen in this thread both have given me info I haven't thought of. (Mainsail too for keeping gun safe in fighting situation)

I am goofy foot though, so I tend to put my foot strong side foot forward. So I don't think cross draw would work for me.