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Thread: No guns sign at DHS legal?

  1. #1
    Regular Member backenj's Avatar
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    No guns sign at DHS legal?

    I can't post the picture from my phone right now, but there is a no gun/weapons sign at the Department of Human Services building in Muskegon. Is it legal?

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    No guns sign at DHS legal?

    DHS is a child placement agency, making it akin to a sports stadium as far as CC/OC goes.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  3. #3
    Regular Member backenj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    DHS is a child placement agency, making it akin to a sports stadium as far as CC/OC goes.
    So I can OC with a CPL?

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    No guns sign at DHS legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by backenj View Post
    So I can OC with a CPL?
    It's akin to a bar/sports stadium, etc.

    To say you can OC with a CPL over-simplifies the matter. See People v Watkins.
    Last edited by TheQ; 10-19-2012 at 11:29 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Actually, I think they consider it more like a day care center or something. But I might be wrong.
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    Department of Human Services is a political subdivision of the executive branch of the State.

    They are not preempted by the legislature.

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    Regular Member backenj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    It's akin to a bar/sports stadium, etc.

    To say you can OC with a CPL over-simplifies the matter. See People v Watkins.
    What one? I found a few and most are in regards to marijuana. One was about MSU, one was about a fight.

  8. #8
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    No guns sign at DHS legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    Actually, I think they consider it more like a day care center or something. But I might be wrong.
    You can't consider the numerous adults, who are dependent on the state for most of their life for food and shelter, who often act immature, And hang out there for the better part of the day to be "children".
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    No guns sign at DHS legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by backenj View Post
    What one? I found a few and most are in regards to marijuana. One was about MSU, one was about a fight.
    If you go digging around Michigan gunowners for you will find some references to the case.

    If I wasn't on my phone right now, I would link you to the thread.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    No guns sign at DHS legal?

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...d.php?t=136331

    Enjoy!

    Please note, ultimately Thea case set no new binding precedent one way or another.
    Last edited by TheQ; 10-19-2012 at 11:56 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  11. #11
    Regular Member backenj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    Department of Human Services is a political subdivision of the executive branch of the State.

    They are not preempted by the legislature.
    So, are you saying the sign is legal? Thanks Q, I will read it after work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backenj View Post
    So, are you saying the sign is legal? Thanks Q, I will read it after work.
    I'm saying that since they're not preempted by the state (since they *are* the state), they may be able to be more restrictive than state law on premises they control.

    And that's regardless of whether they're a daycare facility or not.

  13. #13
    Regular Member backenj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...d.php?t=136331

    Enjoy!

    Please note, ultimately Thea case set no new binding precedent one way or another.
    OK. Shorter article then I thought. That has to do with a sports arena. This is a state facility. Not the same.

  14. #14
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    No guns sign at DHS legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by backenj View Post
    OK. Shorter article then I thought. That has to do with a sports arena. This is a state facility. Not the same.
    In the fact it is a child placement agency, it puts it in the same boat with MCL 28.425o. Some judges don't agree with the black and white law that you can OC in a PFZ.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  15. #15
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    No guns sign at DHS legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    I'm saying that since they're not preempted by the state (since they *are* the state), they may be able to be more restrictive than state law on premises they control.

    And that's regardless of whether they're a daycare facility or not.
    Preemption doesn't apply here, but the Agency's enabling statute might. If their enabling statute doesn't permit them to regulate guns....then.......

    Also, the field preemption idea applies (which is one of Michigan Open Carry's arguments in Michigan Open Carry v CADL).
    Last edited by TheQ; 10-19-2012 at 02:03 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  16. #16
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    You can't consider the numerous adults, who are dependent on the state for most of their life for food and shelter, who often act immature, And hang out there for the better part of the day to be "children".
    No, not for that reason. I've been in the DHS office in Lansing, they have, or at least had a "day care" type area where parents who were there to see a case worker could leave their children under adult supervision. Usually some grandmotherly type person.
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  17. #17
    Regular Member backenj's Avatar
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    It seems that know body knows for sure. Thanks every one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backenj View Post
    It seems that know body knows for sure. Thanks every one.
    Zig was right, they are not preempted. Because DHS is a child placement agency(having nothing to do with the fact there is an area to have kids babysat) it places it firmly in the 28.425o CC restrictions. That leaves OC w/CPL. So, can a state agency ban firearm carry on it's property? Absent a law to stop them(like preemption), I can't see why they wouldn't. Then there is Q's thought that they somehow have to have the power to regulate firearms written somewhere. I suppose that could have merit. So, who is suing the state to find out?
    Last edited by scot623; 10-19-2012 at 03:34 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    No guns sign at DHS legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Zig was right, they are not preempted. Because DHS is a child placement agency(having nothing to do with the fact there is an area to have kids babysat) it places it firmly in the 28.425o CC restrictions. That leaves OC w/CPL. So, can a state agency ban firearm carry on it's property? Absent a law to stop them(like preemption), I can't see why they wouldn't. Then there is Q's thought that they somehow have to have the power to regulate firearms written somewhere. I suppose that could have merit. So, who is suing the state to find out?
    Like Rob said, there isn't really any settled case law on these situations ....only opinions. I was once told opinions are like a$sholes everyone has them and they all stink.
    Last edited by TheQ; 10-19-2012 at 07:36 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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