Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 80

Thread: A glimpse into what MI could be in the future...with your help.

  1. #1
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Secret Bunker
    Posts
    2,573

    Lightbulb A glimpse into what MI could be in the future...with your help.

    I had the good fortune to attend the annual Arizona Citizens Defense Leagues http://www.azcdl.org/ membership meeting held at the Sheraton Crescent Hotel's main hall in Phoenix AZ. This room can hold over 500 people. The hall was filled to the point that those who arrived late sat in chairs brought in by staff along the back wall. During the meeting it was announced that AzCDL has nearly 7,000 paid memberships! It was clear to me what this meant as I watched Arizona State Representatives and Senators most of which who were wearing pistols like the rest of us, jockey for the chance to speak to the crowd.

    One thought kept reoccurring as I listened and watched; why can't Michigan follow this example? AzCDL is a relatively new organization less than 7 years old at this date in time. They began with a few core members focused on changing Arizona's laws. AzCDL started out recruiting members by manning tables at gun shows and still does so today. Less than 7 years later, with a large membership, a volunteer corp, and dedicated lobbying arm that advises the state legislature, Arizona has become one of a handful of Constitutional Carry states. While not perfect, Arizona has some of the most “pro-rights” gun laws on the books in the United States. From what I heard from the lawmakers on hand this trend will continue in the future.

    Michigan has many fine pro-rights / pro-2A groups. However without a large group that can grab lawmakers by the belt buckle, and make them pay attention and hold that attention, the chances of any major changes fade from the near future.

    I for one would be happy to see Michigan get the freedoms that we have in Arizona. On a closing note, I wonder as more law abiding citizens take responsibility for their safety if we will see the number of violent crimes continue to drop?

    See recent data here:
    http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012.../crimes_061112

    This flies in the face of many Michigan politicians who continue to parrot the old “anti” mantra of:
    “more guns = more crime”.

    Do you think the people of Michigan can put something like this together?

    Regards,

    FreeInAZ

    Member: NRA,AzCDL,MCRGO,MGO,MOC

  2. #2
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Monroe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,196
    I have been saying the exact same thing for a long time now. It's not just AZ that has had success this way, Georgia Carry & Buckeye Firearms have both had a lot of success at the state level, and politicians in those states now seem to fear them more than the NRA.

    We are diluting ourselves with MCRGO, MOC, & MGO. Not only would one large org have more members, it would have more resources to support lawsuits(like GC and BF do), and it would hold much more clout with state lawmakers. As it stands, who is really holding MI politicians responsible when they don't do what they say? With a large group that has thousands of members they can put a lot more heat on someone.

    Buckeye Firearms helped get a lot of people elected in the last couple elections, and they have seen some very good gun laws passed as a result, because the politicians in OH fear them. They also had the funds to take the City of Cleveland all the way to the OH supreme court to fight Clevelands attack on preemption.

    The day that this state puts together a very large, well funded state organization is the day things will start to get done here. Until then I think we will continue to see what we have seen the last 2 years, people who make promises to get elected then do nothing because they know no one is large & powerful enough to make them keep that promise.

    ETA- this is not meant to be a knock on any of these groups, i think all have done good things and i think all try to get things done(well at least MOC and MGO do)
    Last edited by detroit_fan; 10-20-2012 at 12:17 PM.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  3. #3
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Re: A glimpse into what MI could be in the future...with your help.

    Ive read some posts on the AZ sub-forum regarding what it took to get constitutional carry and the same holds true here: we have met the enemy... and it is us.

    The issue in Michigan is a little bit different then almost any other state. What drives Michigan gun legislation is hunting... specifically deer hunting. I've heard that the whole issue about firearms in cars really has more to do with poaching than anything else. Also, we tend to have many people who consider themselves "gun activists" because they hunt deer with a long gun... and can't imagine anyone carrying a pistol with them wherever they go. Plus, most Republicans on this side of the state, with Ottawa County being one if the most Republican in the nation, claim to be pro-2a but think that the 2nd amendment really only protects hunting. This is changing, but it is a very slow process.
    Btw, I personally don't see Arizona as a mecca of gun rights if what I heard is true: have to unload firearm if in a car on school grounds and many more "firearms prohibited" signs (I've only seen 2 or 3 in Michigan since 2004.)

    Michigan is certainly far from perfect but if you can deal with getting a permit, from what I understand, OC may be less understood by our fellow citizens here but is actually less restricted than it is there. But, I'd like to hear from those that have carried in both places.

    That being said, I think if the OC community could get its act together, we could become a major force in this state and we would see real change. But, as has been borne out the past few months, we need to focus in the goals instead of expending so much energy fighting amongst ourselves.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  4. #4
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Monroe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,196
    I agree with a lot of what you said Dr Todd, but don't you think resources and influence would be expanded if 2A supporters weren't spread over so many smaller groups? Look at the CADL case, it has taken a lot just to try and fund that, it seems that with a larger group that had more members funds would be uncreased to fight cases like this?

    How many times do we see posted on here "this is not right, but who has the money to take this court?". With a large group that has deeper coffers that issue would be alleviated some, don't you think?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Re: A glimpse into what MI could be in the future...with your help.

    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you said Dr Todd, but don't you think resources and influence would be expanded if 2A supporters weren't spread over so many smaller groups? Look at the CADL case, it has taken a lot just to try and fund that, it seems that with a larger group that had more members funds would be uncreased to fight cases like this?

    How many times do we see posted on here "this is not right, but who has the money to take this court?". With a large group that has deeper coffers that issue would be alleviated some, don't you think?
    Oh, very much so... money is, in many cases, a huge factor in politics and changing Michigan's gun law is truly "politics". It also doesn't hurt to use the legal system to change things... and this too takes money. The reasons given for 99% of the laws have been shown to be illogical... now we are dealing with "feelings"; feelings are some of the toughest human attributes to change.

    My post wasn't intended to be critical of your point, rather it was a meager attempt to add the idea that solidarity requires that we begin to try to change how we, as 2a advocates and our organizations, treat one another. I think the money will come if people start to realize we are on the same side... any money sent to move along pro-2a legislation or legal actions helps all gun owners, even those who only use a firearm for 2 weeks every year.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  6. #6
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Monroe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,196
    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Oh, very much so... money is, in many cases, a huge factor in politics and changing Michigan's gun law is truly "politics". It also doesn't hurt to use the legal system to change things... and this too takes money. The reasons given for 99% of the laws have been shown to be illogical... now we are dealing with "feelings"; feelings are some of the toughest human attributes to change.

    My post wasn't intended to be critical of your point, rather it was a meager attempt to add the idea that solidarity requires that we begin to try to change how we, as 2a advocates and our organizations, treat one another. I think the money will come if people start to realize we are on the same side... any money sent to move along pro-2a legislation or legal actions helps all gun owners, even those who only use a firearm for 2 weeks every year.
    I didn't take it as criticism at all, I think you make some excellent points. I 100% agree, solidarity could easily help take things to the next level, and hopefully that is where we are headed.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  7. #7
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Secret Bunker
    Posts
    2,573

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post

    ...

    Btw, I personally don't see Arizona as a mecca of gun rights if what I heard is true: have to unload firearm if in a car on school grounds and many more "firearms prohibited" signs (I've only seen 2 or 3 in Michigan since 2004.)
    You are correct, no Mecca here, but last year with the help of AzCDL a bill was passed by both state houses (in one session no less) that would have done away with the restrictions on carry in municipal buildings (where the majority of no carry signs are placed). However, our Republican Gov. Jan Brewer promptly vetoed it??? It will get passed we have been assured of this by the legislature AzCDL is on the case.

    On the flip side I can carry on a daily basis WITHOUT a CPL [AZ = CCW]. Discreetly (CC) or Open, in a car, at a 7-11 / Circle K that sells liquor without "magically" becoming a felon. Also I can get a CPL/CCW here for $60. 40+% less than it cost in MI. Go figure.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Houghton County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    808
    Doing our part in the western U.P., state house and senate candidates from both parties have been A- rated or better (NRA) for many, many, many years. My current rep voted for 5225, and my current senator is a co-sponsor of SB59
    Rand Paul 2016

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448

    A glimpse into what MI could be in the future...with your help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
    Doing our part in the western U.P., state house and senate candidates from both parties have been A- rated or better (NRA) for many, many, many years. My current rep voted for 5225, and my current senator is a co-sponsor of SB59
    The NRA rating means nothing. They gave Mitt Romney an "A" somehow.

    http://youtu.be/Kk1bJOpYUqE
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Re: A glimpse into what MI could be in the future...with your help.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    The NRA rating means nothing. They gave Mitt Romney an "A" somehow.

    http://youtu.be/Kk1bJOpYUqE
    I don't generally agree unless you mean that they rate people based on voting how the NRA would like s person to. What the NRA likes and what I like may be two entirely different things. Regarding their support of Romney by giving him an "A" is perhaps something they do to be politically expedient, but may call their whole grading system into question. Although Obama is definately not "pro 2A", Romney isn't any better in my opinion. Reminds me of a popular folk saying...something about a silk purse and a sow's ear.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  11. #11
    Regular Member G22's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    74
    Once upon a time, there used to be a organization with clout in Michigan. It had hard working, true to the core, 2A activists with several chapters state wide. I believe there were well over 10k paid members.

    Then the wheels fell off...New leadership took over and they sued some members, and threatened and revoked paid memberships from all others who dared ask any questions. They endorsed anti-gun candidates, and cherry picked their BoD members from a local union. The new president started taking a salary from membership dues. The forums, the all important hub for member communication, was shut down.

    The end.

  12. #12
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Okemos, MI
    Posts
    884
    What organization?
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  13. #13
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446
    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    What organization?
    MCRGOs
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Houghton County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    808
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    The NRA rating means nothing. They gave Mitt Romney an "A" somehow.

    http://youtu.be/Kk1bJOpYUqE
    I agree generally, but they are the only org (that I know of) that gives rating on a state level. GOA gives both candidates for District 1 (U.P./some northern MI counties) for the U.S. House "A" ratings.
    Rand Paul 2016

  15. #15
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Secret Bunker
    Posts
    2,573

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    MCRGOs
    Well that stinks! I'll have to let my membership expire.

    The question still stands, can the good people of Michigan put a group together?


    Hell I'll sign up. I have a dog in this fight as many family members & good OC friends are still subject to WONKY LOCAL GUN BOARDS (see Wayne County) and their whims.

    No such thing here the state police (DPS) run it all.

  16. #16
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448

    A glimpse into what MI could be in the future...with your help.

    Too many divergent interests.

    Most hunters don't care about carry.

    Most CCers don't care about OC.

    Divide an conquer, works every time.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  17. #17
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Secret Bunker
    Posts
    2,573

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Too many divergent interests.

    Most hunters don't care about carry.

    Most CCers don't care about OC.

    Divide an conquer, works every time.
    Well maybe now would be a good time to try framing the issues in a different light?

    In AZ this was done from a stand point of public safety & rights. Here people (most) get that guns don't murder people criminals do. You'll note the words used: safety & rights vs. pro gun, and so on. It's all a PR campaign with most of the public. If you give them the chance, most get it.

    Detroit is a prime example of a brain-washed people. In a city that bucks the national trend and violent crime - particularly murder, is on the rise you have people standing in lines waiting to turn in their only firearm for home defense for a $25 food or gas card?

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Northwest Kent County, Michigan
    Posts
    757
    Quote Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Once upon a time, there used to be a organization with clout in Michigan. It had hard working, true to the core, 2A activists with several chapters state wide. I believe there were well over 10k paid members.

    Then the wheels fell off...New leadership took over and they sued some members, and threatened and revoked paid memberships from all others who dared ask any questions. They endorsed anti-gun candidates, and cherry picked their BoD members from a local union. The new president started taking a salary from membership dues. The forums, the all important hub for member communication, was shut down.

    The end.
    +1

    I was a member of MCRGO (from about 2001 or so) and went to one of their dinners. Wayne LaPierre attended and gave a speech along with many other local speakers including sheriffs, prosecutors, Judges and of course politicians. I was really impressed, not a red-neck among the several hundred in attendance. For a few years, MCRGO was getting pro-Gun legislation passed left and right, then promptly self-destructed. They haven't accomplished a damned thing since then. As far as I heard, they disintegrated over a fight to control the member list and obviously never recovered.

    Lesson to be learned. Go look at the structure and charter of the Virginia Citizens's Defense League, the Buckeye Firearms Association, the Arizona Citizen's Defense League, etc. figure out how they are set up and run. Have clear unambiguous rules about who controls the membership list, how the leadership is elected (or sacked), dues collected and transparently accounted for, meetings scheduled, announced and conducted and so on. An effective organization can't be run by the seat of the founder's pants for long (that is how squabbles start). Oh and it also wouldn't hurt to explicitly state in the charter that the organization supports all firearms rights regardless of what the board of directors favors.
    Last edited by OC4me; 10-22-2012 at 04:50 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448

    A glimpse into what MI could be in the future...with your help.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    +1

    I was a member of MCRGO (from about 2001 or so) and went to one of their dinners. Wayne LaPierre attended and gave a speech along with many other local speakers including sheriffs, prosecutors, Judges and of course politicians. I was really impressed, not a red-neck among the several hundred in attendance. For a few years, MCRGO was getting pro-Gun legislation passed left and right, then promptly self-destructed. They haven't accomplished a damned thing since then. As far as I heard, they disintegrated over a fight to control the member list and obviously never recovered.

    Lesson to be learned. Go look at the structure and charter of the Virginia Citizens's Defense League, the Buckeye Firearms Coalition, the Arizona Citizen's Defense League, etc. figure out how they are set up and run. Have clear unambiguous rules about who controls the membership list, how the leadership is elected (or sacked), dues collected and transparently accounted for, meetings scheduled, announced and conducted and so on. An effective organization can't be run by the seat of the founder's pants for long (that is how squabbles start). Oh and it also wouldn't hurt to explicitly state in the charter that the organization supports all firearms rights regardless of what the board of directors favors.
    What is the actions of an organization other than the actions of its Board of Directors? If you want a good organization, you have to have a good Board of Directors. If you want quality directors, the best way to get them is to have multiple people step up.

    I haven't decided if I will run again or not. If I choose not to, I will soon be taking applications for successors to work closely with me for several months.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337
    To know what happened at MCRGO, one doesn't need to look very far... here's a good starting point:

    http://care4mi.tripod.com/interview.htm

    Links on the left at the linked page provide a historic view of what happened at MCRGO; instructive for us here.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Wild Wild West Michigan
    Posts
    1,188
    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    To know what happened at MCRGO, one doesn't need to look very far... here's a good starting point:

    http://care4mi.tripod.com/interview.htm

    Links on the left at the linked page provide a historic view of what happened at MCRGO; instructive for us here.
    I could really feel the love!
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  22. #22
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Okemos, MI
    Posts
    884
    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    He only makes $60K plus expenses? Ha! TheQ makes more than that over at MOC!
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  23. #23
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830
    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Michigan is certainly far from perfect but if you can deal with getting a permit, from what I understand, OC may be less understood by our fellow citizens here but is actually less restricted than it is there. But, I'd like to hear from those that have carried in both places.

    That being said, I think if the OC community could get its act together, we could become a major force in this state and we would see real change. But, as has been borne out the past few months, we need to focus in the goals instead of expending so much energy fighting amongst ourselves.
    Yes on all accounts, having carried in both states. Many places in AZ post no weapons signs, and the local government agencies have the right to prohibit carry. Their version of preemption is lockers at the entrance to public buildings where you can check weapons in.

    In regards to getting acts together, in addition to the other factors mentioned here, there are significant cultural differences about approaches to politics. AZ tends to be very laid back, and people tend to stay out of politics for the most part. It is a poorly educated area. (A large part of the reason why I came back here was better schools to study auto repair). However, many liberty activists live there, many flocking there for freedoms sake as I did. And this type will hound the legislature, and go nuts collecting signatures and stuff to block the smallest tax hikes and things. An attempt at a gun ban would generate so much fury that it is out of the question. Plus when you see people OCing regularly, and the cops being nice to you, the us against them paradigm doesn't exist, and people automatically want freedom and the responsibility that comes with it.

    Given the laid back attitude yet ferocious pro freedom attitude combined with freedom loving politicians (other than a few select people like Nopolitano) things can kind of fall into place. Sure, you'll have issues like the NRA lobbying to stop OCing at places that sell booze for on site consumption, but in general things just fall into place.

    On the other hand, in our state we have a long standing tradition of organized crime more or less from the top down and everywhere in between, hard working go getters who work hard and feel independent and competitive in their ventures and subsequently get into a lot of organizational break ups and ******* matches, and yes, can't see the light at the end of the tunnel about gun rights since so many think it's all about hunting.

    AZ and Michigan are two very different places. Sure we can attempt to emulate the success of others, and we should. But there should also be an understanding that we'll still probably have to carve our own path to success.
    Last edited by Michigander; 10-22-2012 at 09:24 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  24. #24
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Secret Bunker
    Posts
    2,573
    Yes, MI, is different than, AZ, OH, VA. For that matter you & I are different, yet we agree on more than we disagree on. My purpose of this thread was to point out that progress can be made if a unified front is present in any state. In MI. that seems to be the only thing keeping the pro guns or better said pro rights crowd in check. MI is not that different that the people cannot work together. I can say if under 7,000 people can have such a huge influence in AZ that a similar number could not do the same in any state, including MI. It has been posted that MCRGO before they went to hell in a hand basket made great strides in changing state law. MI just needs some good people to spearhead a organized front and things will change. Until then you will get the usual run around from the MI legislature "maybe next term we'll get to that....etc...."

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Northwest Kent County, Michigan
    Posts
    757
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    My purpose of this thread was to point out that progress can be made if a unified front is present in any state.
    +1

    Absolutely, it should be pointed out again that MCRGO was tremendously successful for a few short years (prior to its internal squabbles).

    So that only goes to show that Michigan is not really different than the other states as far as effectiveness of the gun-lobby is concerned. The only difference is that MCRGO never recovered in my humble opinion.

    A Michigan Citizens Defense Leaguue (MCDL), akin to VCDL that focuses on Second Amendment Rights would be welcome.

    In my opinion, MCRGO blew it with an ill-considered decision to wall-off the public at-large by limiting access to their website content to members-only.
    Last edited by OC4me; 10-23-2012 at 12:37 PM.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •