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Thread: New model for Stand Your Ground in Virginia

  1. #1
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    New model for Stand Your Ground in Virginia

    I really, really like this and it is so easy to justify.

    Gun rights advocates Tuesday told a task force reviewing Florida's "stand your ground" law that the statute needs to be revised to take the burden off defendants trying to prove their use of force was justified.

    The burden instead should be placed on prosecutors, and their offices should be required to pay the cost of a "stand your ground" hearing if defendants have charges dropped, said Eric Friday, lead counsel for the gun rights group Florida Carry Inc.

    "Prosecutors will be much more cautious on how they take action," Friday told members of the Task Force on Citizen Safety and Protection during its last hearing involving public comment. Friday said the cost of a defense can be as much as $20,000.

    http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-ne...adv-ar-535466/
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-20-2012 at 08:08 AM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    This may be obvious, but I suspect that any such efforts are going to rest squarely on the results of the Zimmerman case.

    If he is ultimately exonerated, then the proponents of this kind of change will have a TON of momentum and public sentiment to use to show how he was unfairly treated.

    If he is ultimately convicted, then the opponents of this kind of change will likewise have a ton of momentum and public sentiment to use for their purposes instead.

    TFred

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    My own personal opinion in matters of the excusable use of deadly force is that the victim should not suffer the loss of one red cent... except for the cost of his expended ammunition. The fact that his actions are deemed proper, legal, and excusable is enough. Of course we all know that this is more often than not, outside of the world of reality.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I don't see it that way TFred.

    Florida has been consistently in the pro self defense camp for a while now and remains there. Florida served as an example for other states when it went "shall issue" back in 1987. Florida again lead the way with their introduction of Castle Doctrine which incorporates Stand Your Ground verbiage. Both the populous and the legislators were solidly behind these efforts and both of these groups remain of the same mind.

    Now enters another Florida governor who is very much of a RKBA bent, believes in the right to self-defense, and who directs his appointed Task Force to find ways to strengthen Castle Doctrine. Notice he didn't say analyze our law and let me know if it is working or if it is strong enough.

    The Zimmerman case is in reality not a good example of Castle Doctrine working or not working, because that defense was not claimed by the Z. Instead he chose the right to defend himself from life threatening, physical attack independent of all else. Had he chosen a Castle Doctrine defense this might have been all over because the original judge dismissed the case. Under the recommendation pending from the Task Force that would nail that lid shut, preventing any further criminal action against Zimmerman.

    It was IMO only due to outside political pressure from sources of questionable motivation that the charges were placed against Z for 2nd degree murder - therewith the clock and the cash register tape started running. That is a tool of those against us - to use fear of incarceration, loss of rights, and virtual bankruptcy when we consider not giving the choice of our right to live to someone else.

    It is my belief that the governor and the legislators will endorse this recommendation because they not only believe in it themselves, but see the voters will embrace the change also.

    While Virginia's judicial system is somewhat different, adaptation could easily me made to accomplish the same end in the Commonwealth of Va. We could do worse than to follow their lead in this, as they should emulate our right to carry openly. We each can learn something from the other.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I don't see it that way TFred.

    Florida has been consistently in the pro self defense camp for a while now and remains there. Florida served as an example for other states when it went "shall issue" back in 1987. Florida again lead the way with their introduction of Castle Doctrine which incorporates Stand Your Ground verbiage. Both the populous and the legislators were solidly behind these efforts and both of these groups remain of the same mind.

    Now enters another Florida governor who is very much of a RKBA bent, believes in the right to self-defense, and who directs his appointed Task Force to find ways to strengthen Castle Doctrine. Notice he didn't say analyze our law and let me know if it is working or if it is strong enough.

    The Zimmerman case is in reality not a good example of Castle Doctrine working or not working, because that defense was not claimed by the Z. Instead he chose the right to defend himself from life threatening, physical attack independent of all else. Had he chosen a Castle Doctrine defense this might have been all over because the original judge dismissed the case. Under the recommendation pending from the Task Force that would nail that lid shut, preventing any further criminal action against Zimmerman.

    It was IMO only due to outside political pressure from sources of questionable motivation that the charges were placed against Z for 2nd degree murder - therewith the clock and the cash register tape started running. That is a tool of those against us - to use fear of incarceration, loss of rights, and virtual bankruptcy when we consider not giving the choice of our right to live to someone else.

    It is my belief that the governor and the legislators will endorse this recommendation because they not only believe in it themselves, but see the voters will embrace the change also.

    While Virginia's judicial system is somewhat different, adaptation could easily me made to accomplish the same end in the Commonwealth of Va. We could do worse than to follow their lead in this, as they should emulate our right to carry openly. We each can learn something from the other.
    Well said GS!

    I think things will move in the right direction in Virginia. I have no idea what VCDL has in the works for this coming session, but there was so much momentum last year, I feel they will get it right this time.

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    I like the general concept.

    I'm wary of the legislative process, though. You know the one, where amendments can be added at the last second that totally screw up the intent of the sponsor.

    Also, Dan was working on something I am not going to name so as to not telegraph intentions to enemies who check the forum. I would hate to have some part of Dan's work screwed up by this latest idea.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I like the general concept.

    I'm wary of the legislative process, though. You know the one, where amendments can be added at the last second that totally screw up the intent of the sponsor.

    Also, Dan was working on something I am not going to name so as to not telegraph intentions to enemies who check the forum. I would hate to have some part of Dan's work screwed up by this latest idea.
    If we fear the legislative process so much that we avoid it, we all know where that would leave us.

    VCDL is acutely aware of the of the high level of interest in this. It would be precipitous to say anything else at this time.
    My comments are only intended to refer to the Florida concept being a good perceived fit here IMHO.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-20-2012 at 05:17 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    If we fear the legislative process so much that we avoid it, we all know where that would leave us.

    VCDL is acutely aware of the of the high level of interest in this. It would be precipitous to say anything else at this time.
    My comments are only intended to refer to the Florida concept being a good perceived fit here IMHO.
    Wariness = be alert, be careful. Not fear.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  9. #9
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Wariness = be alert, be careful. Not fear.
    Understood - was expanding the concept to another level. To be wary is a cognitive process that impacts no action. When the response to a threat is inaction, that is often the result of fear of the consequences.

    There are those who could, but do not attend the GA, committee meetings, hearings and never speak before them because they are unsure, embarrassed, not used to it, etc. We learn by doing, we overcome fear by successfully accomplishing.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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