What handgun does everyone recommend?

WalkingWolf said:

IMO opinion snapcaps serve no legitimate function other than relieving the buyer of his money. They tell the user nothing in dry firing, a user could have a broken firing pin and the snapcap will not alert them. While the much cheaper eraser pencil will. I have never seen any magazine messed up just from inserting empty. The magazine on every gun I have seen the lips do not touch the slide, and the slide locks on either the bottom, or a cut in the magazine for a catch. The lips get bent when ejected and striking a hard surface, simply inspect the mags after range use, or catch them. I stand by my earlier statement, a fool and his money soon part(Schmuck).



But I agree with MAC also.

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I'm sorry, but please work on reading comprehension as it must not be your strongest area. I didn't say that a magazine would get messed up, i said that the magazine lips can mess up the bottom of a polymer gun (and I wouldn't be surprised if they could scratch the finish on a metal frame gun as well). The bottom of my XDm has the marks to prove this from me catching the feed lips on the plastic when doing reload drills without snap caps to help round off the edge and those straight edges catching the plastic on less-than-perfect reloads. And I never said that they would alert you of a broken firing pin, so quit acting like I did. I simply pointed out OTHER times how they would be useful. You also never stated how one should work on various failure drills without a snap cap-type item or how one should practice draw+load when they carry w/o one in the tube for whatever reason (for me it's because the military mandates that I HAVE to carry this way or risk ruining my career and as such I would prefer to practice how to properly employ my weapon from such a position).

I'm not saying that one "has" to buy them, but to say that they are completely pointless and only schmucks get them is incredibly short-sighted and ignorant of you.

Aknazer said:

Tell me, how does one practice things like clearing drills with out a snap cap or similar device? Or what about those that carry w/o one in the tube and want to practice the motion of drawing, taking it off safe, and chambering a round (for example this is how we have to carry in the sandbox but have zero training on how to properly employ it from such a position)? Or you want to practice reloading but don't want the metal feed lips to mess up the bottom of your gun when you don't 100% insert it at the right spot (the bottom of my XDm is a bit scratched up due to such drills w/o snap caps)? Or if your gun isn't properly built for dry firing since not all are?

SNAP (not "snapping" as you've been calling them) Caps have a purpose. Not that one needs to fill a mag with them, but a single package (which contains 2-5 depending on the caliber) is enough for practice. And while one doesn't need one for a function test, if one chooses so that doesn't make them a shmuck.

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I will agree that DUMMY ROUNDS are excellent training resources for practicing stoppage drills when live-fire is out of the question. Even during live-fire, if you place dummy rounds in your magazine with live rounds then it gives you an excellent chance to practice tap-rack-bang. It really helps to have someone place them in your magazine for you, this way you don't know when the dummy rounds will cycle through and you will be surprised by the gun NOT firing.

MAC702 said:

Your more recent statement is fine. You are most certainly entitled to an opinion as to why you think gimmicks are a great idea. And we are welcome to debunk it.

But telling us "there ought to be a law" is significantly different.

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I'm assuming that his post was editted because I'm not seeing one that says snap caps should be required by law. If that was said then I STRONGLY disagree with such a statement. Sure they are a tool that can be useful for various things (for example during M4 training the military gives us 5 dummy rounds and 5 real rounds, we load them randomly, and then switch with someone next to us. This way we can perform the immediate actions on the gun without knowing when it will happen...can't do that with all real rounds reliably), but they should NOT be a mandatory item as they are only useful for certain training situations.

KYGlockster said:

I will agree that DUMMY ROUNDS are excellent training resources for practicing stoppage drills when live-fire is out of the question. Even during live-fire, if you place dummy rounds in your magazine with live rounds then it gives you an excellent chance to practice tap-rack-bang. It really helps to have someone place them in your magazine for you, this way you don't know when the dummy rounds will cycle through and you will be surprised by the gun NOT firing.

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Wow talk about mind reading. I posted just how the military uses dummy rounds for such a drill, hit post, and then saw this. Really all Snap Caps are are dummy rounds and nothing more. Though I will say that they are FAR more durable than the ones that the military uses (an empty round with the primer removed and an orange plastic tip that can easily break), but they are useful for anything that you would use other inert rounds/empty cases for while being very durable.

Aknazer said:

I'm assuming that his post was editted because I'm not seeing one that says snap caps should be required by law. ...

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It was a previous post #63. I didn't know how to add the direct link, but I will edit my post to make it more clear. Thanks.

Aknazer said:

I'm sorry, but please work on reading comprehension as it must not be your strongest area. I didn't say that a magazine would get messed up, i said that the magazine lips can mess up the bottom of a polymer gun (and I wouldn't be surprised if they could scratch the finish on a metal frame gun as well). The bottom of my XDm has the marks to prove this from me catching the feed lips on the plastic when doing reload drills without snap caps to help round off the edge and those straight edges catching the plastic on less-than-perfect reloads. And I never said that they would alert you of a broken firing pin, so quit acting like I did. I simply pointed out OTHER times how they would be useful. You also never stated how one should work on various failure drills without a snap cap-type item or how one should practice draw+load when they carry w/o one in the tube for whatever reason (for me it's because the military mandates that I HAVE to carry this way or risk ruining my career and as such I would prefer to practice how to properly employ my weapon from such a position).

I'm not saying that one "has" to buy them, but to say that they are completely pointless and only schmucks get them is incredibly short-sighted and ignorant of you.

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Sheeesh all my guns have minor scratches, I call it character. I have finally found a decent holster for my Star, which has loads of character. I love that gun, it is not pretty just like me, but it get's the job done. That is all I care about.

Does the military supply you with snap caps to practice with?

Simple do speed drills on the range, no snapycaps needed. IMO there is no practical purpose for them, and my original opinion still stands. Live with it. Also for reload drills snap cap are not going to tell what a gun will do with specific ammo, set up for a disaster. If doing drills with fake ammo is important have dummy cases loaded, leave in the used primer, and buy brass black to ID them. Then you can actually practice your drills with the ammo you use.

BTW there are spring airsoft replicas that cost about the same as snap caps to practice load or reload drills so you won't have to worry about scratching your fashion accessory. I have a M-9 replica to practice FTF drills since my guns never seem to have a problem.

The training value of dummy rounds during live firing drills is not questioned here. Snap caps were brought up when discussing dry-firing a gun as part of periodic function testing after cleaning. Some guns can benefit from them, most modern guns do not. Even my Kimber 1911 rimfire kit says that dry-firing will not harm it, which is rare for a rimfire.

MAC702 said:

The training value of dummy rounds during live firing drills is not questioned here. Snap caps were brought up when discussing dry-firing a gun as part of periodic function testing after cleaning. Some guns can benefit from them, most modern guns do not. Even my Kimber 1911 rimfire kit says that dry-firing will not harm it, which is rare for a rimfire.

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And snapycaps are not dummy rounds. They are plastic and may not feed the same and do not have the same weight. They are made for dry firing, which as pointed out above is what the conversation was about. Since I have never used the gimmicks I have to wonder how long they would last for the repeated use as dummy rounds.

Doing function tests or drills while not on the range, or clearing barrel, or field drills, in the military, seems like a recipe for a letter of reprimand or a article 15, IMO. Seems like the military already supplies drills that are specific to the need for condition 3 carry.

Shoobee said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

Read.

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Using your cite of "wikipedia" - a source which is almost as opinionated as your other favorite, Huffington Post - here's the an excerpt from the first part of "Current Firearms Laws" after the intro:

Currently, about 5.2% of Australian adults own and use firearms for purposes such as hunting, controlling feral animals, collecting, and target shooting.

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5.2% is almost eradicated - their government can breathe easier now, and...

Anyone wishing to possess or use a firearm must have a Firearms Licence and, with some exceptions, be over the age of 18. Owners must have secure storage for their firearms. Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g., Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defence is not accepted as a reason for issuing a license, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defence.

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PERMIT TO ACQUIRE?? LICENSE TO POSSESS OR USE?? They are undoubtedly double-taxed (via "fees" for their permit and license) for what their government has determined as the "privilege" of firearms ownership. "Self-defence is not accepted as a reason for issuing a license"? If you think the Australian firearms laws are a model to be followed, perhaps you should drag your lame ass over there and live. However, being a Kalifornian, you already have the experience of living under the state government's oppression of one's firearms rights (no OC, CCW if you have political connections, even more restricted types of firearms than the feds have declared, restrictions upon magazine capacity, etc.), so the transition should be relatively easy. Kalifornia and you sheeple are a good fit!

You're very slow to catch on...

WalkingWolf said:

Sheeesh all my guns have minor scratches, I call it character. I have finally found a decent holster for my Star, which has loads of character. I love that gun, it is not pretty just like me, but it get's the job done. That is all I care about.

Does the military supply you with snap caps to practice with?

Simple do speed drills on the range, no snapycaps needed. IMO there is no practical purpose for them, and my original opinion still stands. Live with it. Also for reload drills snap cap are not going to tell what a gun will do with specific ammo, set up for a disaster. If doing drills with fake ammo is important have dummy cases loaded, leave in the used primer, and buy brass black to ID them. Then you can actually practice your drills with the ammo you use.

BTW there are spring airsoft replicas that cost about the same as snap caps to practice load or reload drills so you won't have to worry about scratching your fashion accessory. I have a M-9 replica to practice FTF drills since my guns never seem to have a problem.

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The military (more specifically, the AF which is the branch that I'm in) doesn't give us any meaningful practice at all. They have us pass their qualification either just before we deploy or every 6-48 months (frequency depends on one's job).

WalkingWolf said:

And snapycaps are not dummy rounds. They are plastic and may not feed the same and do not have the same weight. They are made for dry firing, which as pointed out above is what the conversation was about. Since I have never used the gimmicks I have to wonder how long they would last for the repeated use as dummy rounds.

Doing function tests or drills while not on the range, or clearing barrel, or field drills, in the military, seems like a recipe for a letter of reprimand or a article 15, IMO. Seems like the military already supplies drills that are specific to the need for condition 3 carry.

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You appear pretty clueless as to what snap caps are. They ARE dummy rounds. In fact they are machined alluminum designed to match the weight and size as the round they are replicating. But of course if you had a clue what you were talking about instead of just spewing ignorance, you would know this. In fact the only plastic dummy rounds I have seen were the ones used by the military! Now I suppose there could be cheapo plastic ones out there (I mean the military has to get theirs from somewhere), but the only ones I've ever seen for sale were the A-Zoom ones that are as I described.

Also no, the military (AF) does NOT provide ANY drills that are specific to the need for condition 3 carry. As I stated earlier in this post, the only "training" recieved was the qualification test prior to deployment and occasionally throughout one's career (assuming you don't deploy often enough to have to do it sooner). And while I'm sure the amount of training one recieves is job/branch specific, I can say that the majority of the AF do not recieve adequate training to the point that it actually scares those of us who have a clue about how to use a weapon (thinking about those around us trying to deploy their weapon, that is). But I have seen Marines take their guns and sit at a regular table and clean it with no clearing chamber around, and Army practicing pistol drills on the back-side of a building (not a range) so again where one trains/cleans their weapon is all going to depend on what their service is willing to accept. Kind of like how Army use Magpul mags but yet the AF dictates that the M4/M16 mags MUST be metal.

Part of the issue here is that the AF trains us to carry condition 0 (well sorta, taught/train to carry loaded, off safe, but hammer down since it's a DA/SA gun as opposed to a cocked hammer), but then we have to follow Army rules in regards to how we carry with no training on it. Which means that if one were to want any training it is on them to do so on their own. And that means training before/after a deployment or during a deployment (and potentially risking getting in trouble; a call they would have to make on their own).

Aknazer said:

...You appear pretty clueless as to what snap caps are. They ARE dummy rounds. In fact they are machined alluminum designed to match the weight and size as the round they are replicating. But of course if you had a clue what you were talking about instead of just spewing ignorance, you would know this. ..

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Uh, this is what most of us picture when we see the term "snap cap:" http://www.midwayusa.com/product/588391/pachmayr-snap-cap-45-acp-polymer-package-of-5

What you are describing is an "action proving round."

If you're going to be rude, you better make damn sure you're right.

Aknazer said:

The military (more specifically, the AF which is the branch that I'm in) doesn't give us any meaningful practice at all. They have us pass their qualification either just before we deploy or every 6-48 months (frequency depends on one's job).



You appear pretty clueless as to what snap caps are. They ARE dummy rounds. In fact they are machined alluminum designed to match the weight and size as the round they are replicating. But of course if you had a clue what you were talking about instead of just spewing ignorance, you would know this. In fact the only plastic dummy rounds I have seen were the ones used by the military! Now I suppose there could be cheapo plastic ones out there (I mean the military has to get theirs from somewhere), but the only ones I've ever seen for sale were the A-Zoom ones that are as I described.

Also no, the military (AF) does NOT provide ANY drills that are specific to the need for condition 3 carry. As I stated earlier in this post, the only "training" recieved was the qualification test prior to deployment and occasionally throughout one's career (assuming you don't deploy often enough to have to do it sooner). And while I'm sure the amount of training one recieves is job/branch specific, I can say that the majority of the AF do not recieve adequate training to the point that it actually scares those of us who have a clue about how to use a weapon (thinking about those around us trying to deploy their weapon, that is). But I have seen Marines take their guns and sit at a regular table and clean it with no clearing chamber around, and Army practicing pistol drills on the back-side of a building (not a range) so again where one trains/cleans their weapon is all going to depend on what their service is willing to accept. Kind of like how Army use Magpul mags but yet the AF dictates that the M4/M16 mags MUST be metal.

Part of the issue here is that the AF trains us to carry condition 0 (well sorta, taught/train to carry loaded, off safe, but hammer down since it's a DA/SA gun as opposed to a cocked hammer), but then we have to follow Army rules in regards to how we carry with no training on it. Which means that if one were to want any training it is on them to do so on their own. And that means training before/after a deployment or during a deployment (and potentially risking getting in trouble; a call they would have to make on their own).

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All the snapy caps I have seen are plastic, not clueless, just not interested. So what you are talking about is dummy rounds not snapy caps, in a discussion about function tests. You seem to be the clueless one. I have no problem with you wasting your money, why should you have a problem with me keeping mine. As far as training that is too bad, wait does the AF still have shooting clubs? I take it you are not security police, or command control. What is your job in the AF? The USAF should have never replaced the combat masterpiece, clearly seams some members cannot make the transition.

Have you ever rode a bicycle? Do you have to practice riding? Some things for most of us do not just go away once they are learned. If I go hunting I don't need to practice dumping my empty shells, and loading with fresh shells on my double, even if it has been months or years. I have no snap caps for my doubles. Honestly I have different guns that have different drills, have all my life, it is automatic with each one how to use them when needed. Did I practice, why yes, with live ammo on a range or in the field. I carry on the farm and have no problem dispatching pests with whatever firearm I have on me at the time. And pets much faster and smaller than a two leg pest, without snappy caps, or dummy rounds.

All I need to practice a tap, rack, bang drill is a empty casing, or cheap spring powered airsoft. I don't worry about beauty blemishes on my gun, it is a tool not a fashion accessory. I don't really concern myself with what the military does, I am no longer obligated to the military. If you have a problem with the lack of training it is not with me. Maybe you should change your field so you are in a combat role and you will get more shooting time. This site is a open carry site mostly IMO intended for civilian open carry, and the discussion you jumped into on had nothing to do with military drills or carry, but it was about function tests. Reading comprehension?

Again I see no practice purpose for snappy caps and consider them a waste of money, your mileage may vary. Anyone that is that consumed with practice I would also think would be reloading and that is not a waste of money. You can then make your own dummy rounds. This is also the internet, and anyone who cannot handle others opinions with out being upset, or angry should find another source of amusement. Anybody who sees posts not specifically directed at them personal injuries does not belong, or plan on getting feelings hurt quite frequently.

IMO snappy caps are a waste of money, a foolish gimmick, I really could care less if that bothers anyone. Get the picture?

Sheesh, a lot of bitching about a useful training tool. :uhoh:

http://www.azoomsnapcaps.com/home/ Those are the snap caps I see in most stores. Machined aluminum, and the .40S&W and .45ACP snap caps are pretty close to a live round's weight. I really don't understand the hate for them. As stated by others, they're useful for:

• Malfunction drills at the range (mix 1-3 in the magazine)
• Function checks anywhere (sure a pencil is better for checking firing pin strike, but a pencil won't test the extractor or ejector)

Sure, you can use primer/powder-less dummy rounds for #2, but the huge advantage of the snap caps is the coloring - you can instantly tell that they are not live rounds. Semi-autos can't use empty cases for either purpose, so that's out for the majority of gun owners. If you're the type to worry about firing pin damage from excessive dry-firing (not an issue on most firearms, but some still worry), the snap cap has a rubbery insert to stop the firing pin.

No one argued against their possible usefulness. But cautions were made about their dangers and hyped-upped necessity.

Some think they should be required by law.

Some think the only kind out there are the more expensive action-proving rounds and insult others who actually have more experience in the real world.

I don't hate snappy caps, I just have no use for them, and IMO they are a waste of money. I don't hate jewelry either, I just don't see the need to waste money on useless accessories.

I use snap caps every day. It's just an inert round. You could make your own if you were so inclined and would get just as much benefit out of them. I like that they are visually and have a tactile difference from live rounds. They do help with practicing malfunction drills without having live rounds in the gun. So really if you aren't inclined to fabricate your own, they are available to purchase. I don't reload so I bought a set of the aluminum machined dark read ones. I'm very happy What's the big deal?

FWIW, I use action-proving rounds in training, both for myself and my students.

The "big deal" is not with these devices themselves.

mobiushky said:

I use snap caps every day. It's just an inert round. You could make your own if you were so inclined and would get just as much benefit out of them. I like that they are visually and have a tactile difference from live rounds. They do help with practicing malfunction drills without having live rounds in the gun. So really if you aren't inclined to fabricate your own, they are available to purchase. I don't reload so I bought a set of the aluminum machined dark read ones. I'm very happy What's the big deal?

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There is no big deal, a couple people got offended because some of us have no use for them and consider them a waste of money. That's it!

IMO any round used for drills should be the same as the rounds carried on a normal basis, and that would mean reloading or getting someone to make them. Aluminum is not the same as brass cased. Brass is used for bearing surfaces for a reason, aluminum ammo while used does not have the same metal to metal interaction as brass. Some people have more problems with the steel cased ammo that is common now, some don't. Aluminum galls brass rarely does. Any round can be marked by using a chemical to patina the case brown or black, or just put them outside in the weather for awhile.

MAC702 said:

FWIW, I use action-proving rounds in training, both for myself and my students.

The "big deal" is not with these devices themselves.

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Perhaps I'm a bit thick headed, but by "action proving" do you mean the auto-reloading action or the firing pin? I have the a-zoom ones and they are listed as action proving, but I don't really know to which action they are referring.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with a dummy bullet pushed into a shell casing with no powder or primer. But that would get easily lost and is pretty much indistinguishable from live rounds.

I also keep a couple of spent casings around to practice stove pipe clearing. I guess the snap caps would to that too, but realism is better with an actual spent casing.

mobiushky said:

Perhaps I'm a bit thick headed, but by "action proving" do you mean the auto-reloading action or the firing pin? I have the a-zoom ones and they are listed as action proving, but I don't really know to which action they are referring.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with a dummy bullet pushed into a shell casing with no powder or primer. But that would get easily lost and is pretty much indistinguishable from live rounds.

I also keep a couple of spent casings around to practice stove pipe clearing. I guess the snap caps would to that too, but realism is better with an actual spent casing.

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I think he means live rounds~I apologize in advance if that is not the case.

OK here is all you have to do to mark those rounds, and they will not get lost any easier than the snappy caps, piss on them then leave them outside. Polish off the green and you will have black cases. For stove pipes if you have a marina close buy some 1100 marine adhesive. Fill the case to a little above the opening. Once it cures it will be a tough surface that will grip anything it comes in contact with. Causing stove pipes or jams when it is fed from the magazine.