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Thread: Open carry and the reciprocity act question

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    Open carry and the reciprocity act question

    Ok so i was at my gun guys shop talking to him about, well you guessed it, guns! This man is a currant police officer and was sent to a training class for the new laws coming in Nov.
    One thing he told me they guy mentioned was the fact that when the new reciprocity act goes into effect that officers in Ok that ask for a license because of someone OCing will not be able to do anything if you simply say your from Az. They guy said it was because of the new reciprocity act and that Ok would then acknowledge any carry laws from other states, and because Az doesn't have to have a lic thats simply it. You are no longer able to proceed unless you have probable cause. Is this how you guys interpret the new laws?

    Another thing he told them was that Nov1 people will be able to OC in a vehicle as long as the driver (or possibly anyone else in the car) has a CCL. I have never heard anything about this at all. Not sure where he came up with that. I was wondering if he meant, because of the law that will allow you to carry in/on your own property, you will be able to OC in your car until you get out without a lic.

    I wish i were able to attend these. Would have loved to hear what all he had to say.

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    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    Everything you were told was correct. Another bill that passed extended reciprocity to any state that does not require a permit to concealed carry. Currently, those states are AZ, AK, WY and VT. A driver's license from any of those states will serve as a handgun license in Oklahoma after Nov 1.

    The other you mentioned is not exactly new. The SDA has provided that all persons in a vehicle who are concealed carrying are legal so long as they are not prohibited persons, and one person in the vehicle has a CWL. The only changes from SB1733 to that are it 1) adds unconcealed to concealed, and 2)CWL becomes a "handgun license".

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    Regular Member Archerman99's Avatar
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    Open carry and the reciprocity act question

    Yep, I second that Bryan

    1289.7
    Any person who is the operator of a vehicle or is a passenger in any vehicle wherein another person who is licensed pursuant to the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act to carry a handgun, concealed or unconcealed, and is carrying a handgun or has the handgun in such vehicle, shall not be deemed in violation of the provisions of this section provided the licensee is in or near the vehicle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Harwell View Post
    One thing he told me they guy mentioned was the fact that when the new reciprocity act goes into effect that officers in Ok that ask for a license because of someone OCing will not be able to do anything if you simply say your from Az. They guy said it was because of the new reciprocity act and that Ok would then acknowledge any carry laws from other states, and because Az doesn't have to have a lic thats simply it. You are no longer able to proceed unless you have probable cause. Is this how you guys interpret the new laws?
    For clarification...

    If you say you are from AZ, you still have to provide a drivers license from AZ as your drivers license is also your permit.

    The individual who is carrying must carry under Oklahoma law, we just recognize their permit (drivers license) so they can continue to carry in OK.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    For clarification...

    If you say you are from AZ, you still have to provide a drivers license from AZ as your drivers license is also your permit.

    The individual who is carrying must carry under Oklahoma law, we just recognize their permit (drivers license) so they can continue to carry in OK.
    Ok what i thought was correct. He said they asked the guy if they had to show ID to guarantee that they were in fact from said state, he said no, and that they cant ask for an ID because of there not being a stop and ID law in ok. I guess hes not considering the drivers license a hand gun license.

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    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    He has raised an interesting 4th amendment issue that I don't have time to get into right now. Our organization is recommending that OCers comply with the license demand, but anything beyond a cursory inspection starts looking like a detention. At that point I'd express to officer friendly that I'd like my license back, and to be on my way.

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    Regular Member ethorman's Avatar
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    Just remember that in OK a "inspection" is not limited to visual, they can run you if they feel like to as part of their "inspection"

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    Quote Originally Posted by okiebryan View Post
    He has raised an interesting 4th amendment issue that I don't have time to get into right now. Our organization is recommending that OCers comply with the license demand, but anything beyond a cursory inspection starts looking like a detention. At that point I'd express to officer friendly that I'd like my license back, and to be on my way.
    Actually, I think you are being too liberal. IMHO: If you are not doing anything CRIMINAL they have no reason to talk to you in the first place. Surrendering your license is more than showing that you have one. I would not surrender the license except under duress, and if I did, for no other reason than my OC, I WOULD file a formal complaint with the officer's department.

    Yes, I mean if the officer insisted, I would surrender it, but I also would complain to his department.

    Sounds like the training the officer mentioned is pretty good...you guys should have very little trouble except for maybe a rogue or two, that is why the formal complaint, you need to get those possible rogues under control.

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    The OP says that any CARRY laws would be honored. I'm assuming he means CC laws only? Because there are many states that don't require a license to be able to OC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Actually, I think you are being too liberal. IMHO: If you are not doing anything CRIMINAL they have no reason to talk to you in the first place. Surrendering your license is more than showing that you have one. I would not surrender the license except under duress, and if I did, for no other reason than my OC, I WOULD file a formal complaint with the officer's department.

    Yes, I mean if the officer insisted, I would surrender it, but I also would complain to his department.

    Sounds like the training the officer mentioned is pretty good...you guys should have very little trouble except for maybe a rogue or two, that is why the formal complaint, you need to get those possible rogues under control.
    But isn't the new OC open carry law another exception to the law against all/any carry? The permission slip is just that - permission to break the law.

    Thus, anybody seen OCing would present PC, if not RAS, of violation of the law until the cop determines that they in fact posses the permission slip. You folks in OK might want to check with Florida and see how they are dealing with issues of cops stopping folks who print (a little or a lot).

    stay safe.
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    Wa open carry

    Washington is and open carry state without a Concealed or any carry license but, they do have a permit for concealed. So here is my question. Since WA allows open carry without a permit so shouldnt WA residents with a valid drivers license be able to carry here openly?

    One side note... Sheriff Deputy CPL Mike Craig ( I believe that is how it is spelled, he didnt have any business cards on him) informed me that it was illegal for me to carry openly here in the state of oklahoma with my valid WA CPL and my WA DL and MIL ID. I called the Comanche County Sheriffs office and they said the would get back to me with no avail. I will call them again today and see if I can get closure to this. His exact words...other states concealed carry license allow you to conceal carry here not open carry here......

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG Riser1981 View Post
    Washington is and open carry state without a Concealed or any carry license but, they do have a permit for concealed. So here is my question. Since WA allows open carry without a permit so shouldnt WA residents with a valid drivers license be able to carry here openly?

    One side note... Sheriff Deputy CPL Mike Craig ( I believe that is how it is spelled, he didnt have any business cards on him) informed me that it was illegal for me to carry openly here in the state of oklahoma with my valid WA CPL and my WA DL and MIL ID. I called the Comanche County Sheriffs office and they said the would get back to me with no avail. I will call them again today and see if I can get closure to this. His exact words...other states concealed carry license allow you to conceal carry here not open carry here......
    Hopefully this will all get cleared up in the next legislative session.

    However, since WA does issue a permit (even though it is for concealed carry), you would not fall into the permitless state portion of the law. Therefore, someone from WA must have a valid CPL in order to OC in OK. Instead of calling the local sheriff's office, call OSBI and ask to speak with someone in the legal department. (405) 848-6724

    Quote Originally Posted by Title 21, Section 1290.26, Version 2
    RECIPROCAL AGREEMENT AUTHORITY

    The State of Oklahoma hereby recognizes any valid concealed or unconcealed carry weapons permit or license issued by another state.

    Any person entering this state in possession of a firearm authorized for concealed or unconcealed carry upon the authority and license of another state is authorized to continue to carry a concealed or unconcealed firearm and license in this state; provided the license from the other state remains valid. The firearm must either be carried unconcealed or concealed from detection and view, and upon coming in contact with any peace officer of this state, the person must disclose the fact that he or she is in possession of a concealed or unconcealed firearm pursuant to a valid concealed or unconcealed carry weapons permit or license issued in another state. Any person who is twenty-one (21) years of age or older having a valid firearm license from another state may apply for a handgun license in this state immediately upon establishing a residence in this state.
    As you can see, anyone authorized to carry a firearm either concealed or unconcealed upon the authority an license of another state, can do so in OK. I would recommend showing this to your local LEO, if they still disagree, ask the city/district attorney since they would be the ones filing charges. If that fails, ask OSBI if there is anything they can do to get your local LEO to accept the law as written.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    The law does read that if you are licensed to carry 'concealed or unconcealed' by another state, that you would be allowed to continue to carry 'concealed or unconcealed' in OK. I would be lead to believe that if your state does not issue a license to OC, that your DL would be enough to OC in OK. Can anyone provide a citation from the law that would refute that?
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    runaround

    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    Hopefully this will all get cleared up in the next legislative session.

    However, since WA does issue a permit (even though it is for concealed carry), you would not fall into the permitless state portion of the law. Therefore, someone from WA must have a valid CPL in order to OC in OK. Instead of calling the local sheriff's office, call OSBI and ask to speak with someone in the legal department. (405) 848-6724



    As you can see, anyone authorized to carry a firearm either concealed or unconcealed upon the authority an license of another state, can do so in OK. I would recommend showing this to your local LEO, if they still disagree, ask the city/district attorney since they would be the ones filing charges. If that fails, ask OSBI if there is anything they can do to get your local LEO to accept the law as written.
    Yeah done that each one of them, (OSBI, DA ect send me to the other till i end up at the sheriffs office

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    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield Smitty View Post
    The law does read that if you are licensed to carry 'concealed or unconcealed' by another state, that you would be allowed to continue to carry 'concealed or unconcealed' in OK. I would be lead to believe that if your state does not issue a license to OC, that your DL would be enough to OC in OK. Can anyone provide a citation from the law that would refute that?
    Per the statute I posted above, it says, "...upon the authority and license...". Lets take WA for example, the state grants anyone in the state authority to OC, but they do not issue a license to do so. Since you do not have both the authority and license to OC in WA, you would not be able to do so in OK.

    If you want to say that WA is a permitless state, then we have to look at the other version of the reciprocity law:

    Quote Originally Posted by Title 21, Section 1290.26, Version 1
    RECIPROCAL AGREEMENT AUTHORITY

    The State of Oklahoma hereby recognizes any valid concealed carry weapons permit or license issued by another state, or if the state is a nonpermitting carry state, this state shall reciprocate under the permitting law of that state.

    A. Any person entering this state in possession of a firearm authorized for concealed carry upon the authority and license of another state is authorized to continue to carry a concealed firearm and license in this state; provided the license from the other state remains valid. The firearm must be carried fully concealed from detection and view, and upon coming in contact with any peace officer of this state, the person must disclose the fact that he or she is in possession of a concealed firearm pursuant to a valid concealed carry weapons permit or license issued in another state.

    B. Any person entering this state in possession of a firearm authorized for concealed carry upon the authority of a state that is a nonpermitted carry state and the person is in compliance with the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, the person is authorized to carry a concealed firearm in this state. The firearm must be carried fully concealed from detection and view, and upon coming in contact with any peace officer of this state, the person must disclose the fact that he or she is in possession of a concealed firearm pursuant to the nonpermitting laws of the state in which he or she is a legal resident. The person shall present proper identification by a valid photo ID as proof that he or she is a legal resident in such a non-permitting state. The Department of Public Safety shall keep a current list of non-permitting states for law enforcement officers to confirm that a state is nonpermitting.

    C. Any person who is twenty-one (21) years of age or older having a valid firearm license from another state may apply for a concealed handgun license in this state immediately upon establishing a residence in this state.
    This statute only applies to concealed carry and would prevent you from OC anyway. This section allows persons from AZ, AK, WY, and VT to conceal in OK, but not OC.

    Hopefully the legislature will fix this in the upcoming session so we only have one version of the reciprocity agreement and it will clear this up and allow people from non-permitting OC states to OC in OK by using their drivers license.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG Riser1981 View Post
    Yeah done that each one of them, (OSBI, DA ect send me to the other till i end up at the sheriffs office
    Wow, seems pretty clear to me. If you are permitted to carry in your home state, you may do so here in the manner that you want.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    But isn't the new OC open carry law another exception to the law against all/any carry? The permission slip is just that - permission to break the law.

    Thus, anybody seen OCing would present PC, if not RAS, of violation of the law until the cop determines that they in fact posses the permission slip. You folks in OK might want to check with Florida and see how they are dealing with issues of cops stopping folks who print (a little or a lot).

    stay safe.
    But is it not illegal to drive without a drivers license? And yet the cops can't just stop people and ask for their driving permission slip unless they have done something else. This is much in that same vein.

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    Per the statute I posted above, it says, "...upon the authority and license...". Lets take WA for example, the state grants anyone in the state authority to OC, but they do not issue a license to do so. Since you do not have both the authority and license to OC in WA, you would not be able to do so in OK.

    If you want to say that WA is a permitless state, then we have to look at the other version of the reciprocity law:



    This statute only applies to concealed carry and would prevent you from OC anyway. This section allows persons from AZ, AK, WY, and VT to conceal in OK, but not OC.

    Hopefully the legislature will fix this in the upcoming session so we only have one version of the reciprocity agreement and it will clear this up and allow people from non-permitting OC states to OC in OK by using their drivers license.

    I see what you are getting at, but I am inclined to believe that my 'authority and license' to OC in a state that does not require a permit to do so would be my DL as my state does grant me that authority by simply residing there; and the state's laws or constitution give me license to do so. They issue me a DL as proof of my residency, so now I have proof of my authority to OC as a resident of that state.
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    I believe that what hrdware is trying to get across (and please correct me if I am wrong on this) is that the question, as the law is written, isn't actually clear. Oh, it's clear that if you live in a state that allows carry, but doesn't make you get a permission slip you can carry in OK, and it's clear that if you live in a state that issues a license then allows you to CC or OC as you choose, you're good here. It's also clear that if you can't carry in your state (either you don't have a license from your state or the state doesn't think the 2A means anything), you can't carry here. The problem is in the states that allow OC without a license, but require a license to CC. THAT is the part that needs clarification.

    Now that I've thrown words at you, I will allow hrdware to either tell me I was correct or beat me up for being wrong...I can take it (Seriously, though, if I am out of line, tell me, okay?)

    Michael

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    I understand and absolutely agree that it needs clarification. I am just throwing out my interpretation of the law as it is currently written. The conversation we are engaged in illustrates the problem with jumping the gun (forgive the pun) on laws and not having a well written and concise piece of legislation ready before passing it into law. This unfortunately seems to be a common theme with government today - not only in OK, but other states as well; and probably worst of all, the Federal government. I continue to stand by my assertion that less laws are better, not only concerning firearms, but in general.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixael View Post
    I believe that what hrdware is trying to get across (and please correct me if I am wrong on this) is that the question, as the law is written, isn't actually clear. Oh, it's clear that if you live in a state that allows carry, but doesn't make you get a permission slip you can carry in OK, and it's clear that if you live in a state that issues a license then allows you to CC or OC as you choose, you're good here. It's also clear that if you can't carry in your state (either you don't have a license from your state or the state doesn't think the 2A means anything), you can't carry here. The problem is in the states that allow OC without a license, but require a license to CC. THAT is the part that needs clarification.

    Now that I've thrown words at you, I will allow hrdware to either tell me I was correct or beat me up for being wrong...I can take it (Seriously, though, if I am out of line, tell me, okay?)

    Michael
    You are correct in your interpretation of what I said. It is confusing and hopefully the legislature will clean this up this legislative session.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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