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Thread: I am in a bit of a bind...

  1. #1
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    I am in a bit of a bind...

    Bear with me as this requires some back ground history. *takes deep breath* Here goes: In April of this year I got a new job working as a nurse at a local rehab. Two days later my new employer comes back and says, "Hey did you know you aren't a US Citizen?" I thought that perhaps they got my SSN wrong since I put a line through my zero like I do in the Army. They read me back my number and I confirmed that that was it. So the next day I head out to the local SSN office to see what this was all about. They confirmed that I wasn't a US Citizen and this started an avalanche of activities on my part. Second stop, Homeland Security in Tukwila. I spoke with an immigration officer and he confirmed that I qualify for a "Derivative Citizenship." You see, my father left Panama ten days before I was born. He, my father was a US Citizen by virtue of his dad (my grandfather) being a US Citizen. BY two sisters don't have this issue because they were born in the Canal Zone and much like being born in any other US territory citizenship for them is automatic. I was born in Panama City proper. My father did not do a born aboard certificate. A lot of GIs have children overseas and file a Born Aboard Certificate and the kids become US Citizens almost instant. I don't wanna apply for an N400 Naturalization because then I would be admitting that I thought I was never a citizen and got my wepaons through fraud not to mention my concealed pistol permit and voters registration card. I have applied for the N600 which is the derived citizenship. I was already denied once only because the lady asked if my grandfather worked for the US Government or the Panama Canal at the time. I called my uncle and he said yes that he did and even provided the a copy of the official form. Now for the benefit of you the reader I will skip the midsection of the story to get to the heart of my predicament.

    1) All the weapons I have ever bought I always checked US Citizen on the form because I thought of myself as nothing less. I was never held up or delayed and my weapons were purchased without incident.
    2) I checked US Citizen on my concealed weapons permit because again I have always thought of myself as nothing less
    3) I have a Secret Clearance in the Army. You cannot per regulation receive a clearance without being a US Citizen
    4) I have a voters registration card and have voted in several elections.

    Now here is my bind...can I legally carry my weapon? Can I legally conceal my weapon? I will not purchase anymore weapons at this point. I left out a bit of the midsection to get to the meat and potatoes so if you have questions fire away.

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    Definitely in a bind. If it was me I would be talking to an immigration attorney instead of asking these questions on a gun forum.

    Best of luck in getting it all sorted out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    Bear with me as this requires some back ground history. *takes deep breath* Here goes: In April of this year I got a new job working as a nurse at a local rehab. Two days later my new employer comes back and says, "Hey did you know you aren't a US Citizen?" I thought that perhaps they got my SSN wrong since I put a line through my zero like I do in the Army. They read me back my number and I confirmed that that was it. So the next day I head out to the local SSN office to see what this was all about. They confirmed that I wasn't a US Citizen and this started an avalanche of activities on my part. Second stop, Homeland Security in Tukwila. I spoke with an immigration officer and he confirmed that I qualify for a "Derivative Citizenship." You see, my father left Panama ten days before I was born. He, my father was a US Citizen by virtue of his dad (my grandfather) being a US Citizen. BY two sisters don't have this issue because they were born in the Canal Zone and much like being born in any other US territory citizenship for them is automatic. I was born in Panama City proper. My father did not do a born aboard certificate. A lot of GIs have children overseas and file a Born Aboard Certificate and the kids become US Citizens almost instant. I don't wanna apply for an N400 Naturalization because then I would be admitting that I thought I was never a citizen and got my wepaons through fraud not to mention my concealed pistol permit and voters registration card. I have applied for the N600 which is the derived citizenship. I was already denied once only because the lady asked if my grandfather worked for the US Government or the Panama Canal at the time. I called my uncle and he said yes that he did and even provided the a copy of the official form. Now for the benefit of you the reader I will skip the midsection of the story to get to the heart of my predicament.

    1) All the weapons I have ever bought I always checked US Citizen on the form because I thought of myself as nothing less. I was never held up or delayed and my weapons were purchased without incident.
    2) I checked US Citizen on my concealed weapons permit because again I have always thought of myself as nothing less
    3) I have a Secret Clearance in the Army. You cannot per regulation receive a clearance without being a US Citizen
    4) I have a voters registration card and have voted in several elections.

    Now here is my bind...can I legally carry my weapon? Can I legally conceal my weapon? I will not purchase anymore weapons at this point. I left out a bit of the midsection to get to the meat and potatoes so if you have questions fire away.
    Right before EVERY form you have ever signed it reads something like this "to the best of my knowledge I state that the above information is true and correct" So for all your past, common sense would tell me you are going to be OK. As for CC or OC or purchase do not until this issue is settled. JMHO
    Last edited by 40S&W; 10-28-2012 at 12:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 911Boss View Post
    Definitely in a bind. If it was me I would be talking to an immigration attorney instead of asking these questions on a gun forum.

    Best of luck in getting it all sorted out.

    Already ask one and he looked like a deer in the headlights and said, "I have never heard of anything like this before." Translation=A lot of money will be needed to float your case. I am looking for a new one.

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    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Re: I am in a bit of a bind...

    Are you still in the Army? Or have access to the VA? I would try to get them to help you out if they can. They should be able to. But deffinately don't carry until you get everything figured out. Good luck to you.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Wow!

    Sorry to hear about your hassle I am positive it will work out in your favor.

    Keep your head up and know that stupid technicalities of these laws doesn't mean you are not a citizen to me that is a condition of your mind and heart.

    Is this really what our country is coming too? Reminds me of the guy in the Diary of Anne Frank, who thought he was German.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 10-28-2012 at 09:58 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Man, that blows! What's ironic in this situation is the past... Clearance with .mil, an entire life of going through background checks, NICS checks etc. Only to be "caught" by a local medical facility.

    Question, you mention that you started a new job as a nurse. Did you have a previous job as a nurse too? The reason I ask is that DOH has a heck of a application process that includes a pretty lengthily background check as well. Was it your employer, or the DOH that caught the error? Are your credentials being suspended or stripped?
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Seems there are 2 issues:
    1) what does your conscience say about exercising various rights?
    2) what would gov't agents say about exercising various rights?

    To me, you're free & clear on #1.
    IANAL, but from what you've said it looks to me like you already are a citizen.
    The .gov just hasn't filed the right paperwork to convince itself.

    For #2, I would think that it only becomes an issue if there's a problem, if someone does more of an investigation than there has already been (in order to get you that clearance, or the voter registration, or the guns, etc.). I'm curious to know what investigation the hospital did that the gov't so far has not?

    You've filed the form so that the gov't admits to itself that your father was a citizen, so you are too.
    It'll make them happy & there's less chance of something odd happening down the road.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Lovenox I would suggest you contact your Representative

    http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

    With background checks where Military, FBI and ATF have been done likely numerous times I would tend to think Social Security Office has something wrong, sarcasm on "it is not like them to loose or enter incorrect information into their system!" sarcasm off....
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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    With background checks where Military, FBI and ATF have been done likely numerous times I would tend to think Social Security Office has something wrong, sarcasm on "it is not like them to loose or enter incorrect information into their system!" sarcasm off....
    Agreed. Given the number of people who are walking around legally dead because the Social Security Administration people hit the wrong button by mistake on a system without an Undo button, it's entirely possible any citizenship issues are a figment of the bureaucracy's imagination.

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    IF a Kenya born person can be Prez..I would think you would be OK, just don't disclose your college records.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    IF a Kenya born person can be Prez..I would think you would be OK, just don't disclose your college records.
    +1 +1 +1
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    IF a Kenya born person can be Prez..I would think you would be OK, just don't disclose your college records.

    McCain was almost president too and was born in the same country as Lovenox.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    I am really surprised you held a secret clearance but now they are saying you are not a US citizen. It was my understanding that citizenship is a requirement for a security clearance within the US. At my job we had a high level manager that was not a US citizen so he had to have an escort just to come into the area I worked in even though he was our second level manager because he could not have the clearance since he was Canadian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 40S&W View Post
    Right before EVERY form you have ever signed it reads something like this "to the best of my knowledge I state that the above information is true and correct" So for all your past, common sense would tell me you are going to be OK. As for CC or OC or purchase do not until this issue is settled. JMHO
    Those are my sentiments. And I will refrain from purchasing anymore firearms, but that being said since my status isn't setteled how in the world can I legally carry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    Those are my sentiments. And I will refrain from purchasing anymore firearms, but that being said since my status isn't setteled how in the world can I legally carry?
    I am NOT that familiar with Washington State law but does it not allow for legal resident alien's to possess/carry arms?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    Are you still in the Army? Or have access to the VA? I would try to get them to help you out if they can. They should be able to. But deffinately don't carry until you get everything figured out. Good luck to you.

    Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

    They have no lawyers that specialize in immigration. The gentleman that I spoke with (civilian) at Waller Hall on JBLM said I was a shoe in for Derived Citizenship...he has since dropped off of the radar and has been NO help. Oddly enough he is the one we originally saw at Homeland Security in Tukwila...I have since written him off. I am going to write to Senator McCain because he was in the exact perdicament I was in , as a matter of fact he had to prove his citizenship before running in 2008. I tried Murray's office and they never called back. Maybe they know I am a Conservative....lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by massivedesign View Post
    Man, that blows! What's ironic in this situation is the past... Clearance with .mil, an entire life of going through background checks, NICS checks etc. Only to be "caught" by a local medical facility.

    Question, you mention that you started a new job as a nurse. Did you have a previous job as a nurse too? The reason I ask is that DOH has a heck of a application process that includes a pretty lengthily background check as well. Was it your employer, or the DOH that caught the error? Are your credentials being suspended or stripped?
    This is the odd part. I have had several jobs prior to the military and after I left and nothing was ever said or noted to me. I just got off of a three year Mobilization at I Corps HQ and went back to civilian life when I landed this job. Like I said earlier, two days later after being hired they said "Hey did you know you aren't a US Citizen...?"
    Here is a little more background: Before I left to Kuwait in 2005 I started my paperwork for my secret clearance. While in Kuwait the spooks handling my stuff would call about once week with various questions about this or that. Fast forward to 2008 and I am again MOB'd, this time right on Ft Lewis...I go through the processing at Waller Hall and *poof* I am granted my Secret Clearance. I just had to sign a standard document saying I won't talk about the secret stuff I handled....

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    You could try writing your state level senator and congressman. Not sure how much help they would be, but I don't see it hurting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Seems there are 2 issues:
    1) what does your conscience say about exercising various rights?
    2) what would gov't agents say about exercising various rights?

    To me, you're free & clear on #1.
    IANAL, but from what you've said it looks to me like you already are a citizen.
    The .gov just hasn't filed the right paperwork to convince itself.

    For #2, I would think that it only becomes an issue if there's a problem, if someone does more of an investigation than there has already been (in order to get you that clearance, or the voter registration, or the guns, etc.). I'm curious to know what investigation the hospital did that the gov't so far has not?

    You've filed the form so that the gov't admits to itself that your father was a citizen, so you are too.
    It'll make them happy & there's less chance of something odd happening down the road.

    ***

    And hey, 40S&W, I see you're new here. Welcome aboard.
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    As for your #1: Do I have those rights? As for your #2 My former employer didn't do an "investigation" so far they simply ran my SSN for E-Verify. Now the laws are very convoluted as they change according to where and when you were born. Believe me the wife and I have studied it extensively and it just doesn't make sense at times. I was already turned down for the N600 but the lady did ask if my grandfather worked for the US government or the Panama Canal Zone at the time.She didn't give me time to respond. So I am filling an appeal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayd1981 View Post
    I am really surprised you held a secret clearance but now they are saying you are not a US citizen. It was my understanding that citizenship is a requirement for a security clearance within the US. At my job we had a high level manager that was not a US citizen so he had to have an escort just to come into the area I worked in even though he was our second level manager because he could not have the clearance since he was Canadian.

    EXACTLY!!! Here is the kicker: Right around the same time I got hired at the civilian facility I got called on a job at Waller Hall, I was a shoe in as I knew some of the folks that worked there and I came with awesome recommendations and they knew my work ethic through my MOB at I CORPS HQ. So, they said great you are hired, but you have to "prove" you are a US Citizen, to which I said I can't but can you take my Secret Clearance in the meantime while I get this stuff sorted out. Nope they couldn't do that. So I lost the job. To thier credit they did give me a couple of months. Now here is the kicker, I can get MOB'd to the exact same place as a Soldier and nothing would be said, but since I am a "civilian" it's a different standard. As a side note: they said bring in a passport. Well, I never had a need for a passport since I travelled on my fathers orders or my own ID. I just lost another awesome job as a contractor overseas making six figures. Screwed up, huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayd1981 View Post
    You could try writing your state level senator and congressman. Not sure how much help they would be, but I don't see it hurting.


    I will try Senator McCains office since he went through a very similar perdicament. I will keep you all posted.

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    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Re: I am in a bit of a bind...

    Good luck man. To quote one of my favorite shows, "We're pullin fer ya"

    Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    McCain was almost president too and was born in the same country as Lovenox.
    No McCain was born in the CANAL ZONE which was still a US overseas possession when McCain was born, read what the OP said, the OP was born in Panama City, which belonged to the country of panama.

    For the record I don't believe Obama born in Kenya either. and even if he was, it's irrelevant because his mother was a US citizen.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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