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Thread: 2 young local cops just CONFISCATED my revolver...

  1. #1
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    2 young local cops just CONFISCATED my revolver...

    I just got home. On the way home from work, I went to two different stores, and was in my home town, several blocks from HOME. I got pulled over, which is in and of itself not that big a deal.

    I have a permit in my state (PA), and i open carry sometimes, and other times I concealed carry. Hey, depends on my mood. since i have the permit, when i am open carrying, I dont sweat driving OCing.

    the routine traffic stop went politely, but... my REVOLVER was not RETURNED to me!

    The 2 young cops claim that "the radio" says the gun is not in "my name", and tell me some name i NEVER heard of before... therefore, they have to CONFISCATE it, and when i find my "paperwork" i can have my gun back.

    no fine, no arrest, nothing... but they confiscated my revolver!

    Now, I bought the revolver legally, at a long time gun shop, that has been there for decades.

    They were going to DRIVE AWAY with my gun, without even giving me any paperwork for taking it! I realized I didnt even know their NAMES! (I politely demanded some kind of paperwork). I follwed them down to the statio, and I got a generic wallet sized "RECEIPT", the sort of thing you buy at a department store on a pad, it doesnt even have any department LETTERHEAD ON IT.

    I had to ask him to ALSO write down both of their names and ranks (he did)

    ================================================== =============================================

    they were both polite, I was very polite... but, they still kind of pulled me over, no fine, no arrest... and were proceeding to DRIVE OFF with my gun, without even giving me any piece of paper for it at all.

    as my LUCK would have it, i can find "paperwork" for at least a DOZEN other guns i have bought over the years, naturally not the "paperwork" on THAT PARTICULAR ONE.

    THEY are claiming that "the shop" must have "not filed the paperwork correctly" (which i dont believe is MY problem, personally) but my questions are legion, naturally. WHAT the &^%$ happens if i go back to the SHOP, and they dont prpovide me with "paperwork" on MY GUN I BOUGHT LEGALLY AT A GUN SHOP?

    I NEVER get my gun back?

    I have been in and out of work off and on for the last couple of years, money is TIGHT, I cant even THINK about hiring an attorney if i would have to... and I am beginnign to "feel like" I just got robbed (well, sort of, YOU know what I mean)

    I told them I wasnt MAD, but that i found this all "highly irregular".

    PS - they DID SAY that the gun didnt "come back stolen" on the radio, but, since it didnt "come back in my name" they are required to conficate it until i "prove" its really "mine".

    somewhere along the line during all this, one of them started to "schmooze" me into how they "had to" search the entire vehicle... I told the one that said that, very politely, that "whatever, but, please dont get the idea that I am CONSENTING to any more searches or anything if i dont have to"...

    i figured if he was trying the "schmooze" tactic of getting "consent" I would politely say "no". (its a common tactic, whrer the motorist is left the IMPRESSION he HAS TO have the search, but in reality, they are trying to "sweet talk" you INTO consenting it.

    somehow, they ended up NOT searching the "entire car", they seemed to have gotten sidetracked when their crystal ball (the radio, lol) says the gun isnt in my name...

    PPS - heres a funy joke? TECH-nically, there is "no gun registration database" in PA... the state police just HAPPENS to maintain an "incomplete list" of "some sales"... well, if there TECHnically is NOT a "database of gun ownership"... exactly WHO or WHAT is being contacted on the RADIO, huh? LMAO... and to such an extent if the gun does not "come back in your name" it needs to be confiscated?

    I am of the OPINION, that if the gun doesnt come back STOLEN, and i have a carry permit anyways, it should be immediately returned to me, no matter WHAT the "radio says" (which is wrong)

    under these auspices? ANY time you pull ANYONE over, you can just "claim" the radio says its not your gun, and you confiscate it! I feel "lucky" i was able to talk them into a generic "IOU" that does not look like anythiing OFFICIAL saying they have my GUN!

    something about this doesnt smell "legal" to me, but, i am not a lawyer...
    Last edited by sedstar; 10-29-2012 at 12:33 AM.

  2. #2
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    The police violated your rights by even running the serial number, and by taking your property. Some PA police are still confused over the fact that the PSP's record of sales database has nothing to do with ownership and that even if it did, it has nothing to do with what gun you are carrying.

    Contact an civil rights attorney; recommend you discuss a strategy of suing the police in federal court persuant to 42 USC 1983 for due process violation, rather than suing directly in state court. Suing in state court just costs you money and plays into the hand of police.

  3. #3
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    I have said before: when you hand over your gun to the cops, they likely will take it.

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    ...

    MIKE poster: I'm half broke... in your best guess, is this like many other "contingency"cases with lawyers? I dont have any funds to speak of at the moment... I barely meet my bills right now. Any recommendations? I know about as much about federal lawyers and civil rights cases, as I do about space travel... virtually nothing.



    to the second poster? lol... I agree

    keep in mind, in this situation I didnt "hand it over", lol

    upon being pulled over for a possible minor traffic infraction? Upon seeing my carry permit, i was politely but firmly ordered to get out of the vehicle, hands on the car... and was disarmed and frisked.

    I was told I was being "detained", and during the fairly long "stop" I was always quietly and politely told to keep my hands in plain sight

    i didnt hand it over, I was sort of "robbed", lmao

    except for the badge, gun, and cop car? it would have been armed robbery, LMAO

    even for THIS area, this is a new one... previously, I always knew that any time a cop runs across any gun, they have to play with it and run the numbers over the radio... when it doesnt come back "stolen" you get it back immediately.

    this new "tactic" is insidious... you GRAB UP anythiing you want to, keep it, and MAYbe they give it back when you "prove" its yours?

    I mean, think about how laughable this is... can you PROVE thats YOUR car stereo? Can you PROVE its YOUR leather coat on your car seat? How about your fishing rod?

    to the average citizen, this might seem reasonable... after all, its a *gasp* a GUN you know... but when you exchange the word "gun" for any other item of personal property.... it becomes laughable.

  5. #5
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    is there a registration in PA? if not than it would be up to the person that is in possession of the gun, unless of course it was reported stolen.

    you actually can contact your local legal aide , they will provide legal counseling for free , but remember they are anti - gun. hey call the ACLU they sometimes will help.

    also check with the state grass roots gun rights groups in the area. they will sometimes get involved
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Sedstar - You might look for immediate and long-term help from PAFOA http://www.pafoa.org/ . In addition to great grass-roots activists they have a network of sorts for legal assistance (not necessarily paying for attorneys but for finding ones that will do small amounts of work pro bono).

    You should also file FOIA requests as soon as possible. Go to http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/...OIA_procedures and follow the steps = there are no special forms or even format. The most important thing about your request is that it should ask for "all records, of whatever type." (If you want, and it's not a bad idea, list the basics such as written to include field notes and personal memmoranda, video and audio recordings, "and all others".) State the date/time of the incident and the names of the oficers initially involved, but also request the names of all who subsequently handled/processed your handgun.

    Take a deep breath and try to relax a bit. I have a feeling folks from Pennsylvania who have dealt with this sort of thing (personally and/or as advocates) will be coming around after the sun comes up and we all find out how badly Frankenstorm hit us.

    While you are waiting you should go to the PD and file a formal, written complaint. That's usually through Internal Affairs and thry usually have a form that is to be used. If you cannot get to the PD during "normal" working hours call up and ask for an appointment at a time convenient to you. (Get the name of everyone you talk to/with - write notes about what they say/tell you as it is happening.)

    stay safe.
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    Seems to me that if they, the police, have no record of that firearm being stolen then they would have to prove that it was prior to confiscation..... Just saying!

    But, you do now have evidence that they 'stole' yours, then even gave you a receipt for same.

    Good luck!
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    The 2nd amendment means nothing if they can simply come up to you and take your gun away.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The 2nd amendment means nothing if they can simply come up to you and take your gun away.
    Absolutely. So...what they are saying is that any used firearms purchases are subject to immediate seizure unless you happen to be carrying around the proper paperwork? What paperwork would they "accept"? A receipt? A note? An FFL transfer form?

    I agree...you need to immediately start getting your ducks in a row or you can likely kiss that pistol good bye!
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    Absolutely. So...what they are saying is that any used firearms purchases are subject to immediate seizure unless you happen to be carrying around the proper paperwork? What paperwork would they "accept"? A receipt? A note? An FFL transfer form?

    I agree...you need to immediately start getting your ducks in a row or you can likely kiss that pistol good bye!
    This is a good reason not to carry the most expensive handgun you can find. There is always a chance a gun will be illegally seized, and have to jump through hoops to get it back.
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    Seems to me there isn't must to prevent the Government from seizing even legally owned property or firearms whenever they encounter them. Presently they confiscate cash and force those they take it from to prove that it is not drug or crime related to get it back. Whats to stop them from doing the same for any property a person may be carrying. Including firearms.

    Michael

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    Seems like the bullies on the playground stole your lunch money. Just be glad you didn't get beaten up also.

    I certainly do not condone it, but it does surprise me more of these bullies don't get stood up to. I mean how much can people take before snapping?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sedstar View Post
    MIKE poster: I'm half broke... in your best guess, is this like many other "contingency"cases with lawyers? I dont have any funds to speak of at the moment... I barely meet my bills right now. Any recommendations? I know about as much about federal lawyers and civil rights cases, as I do about space travel... virtually nothing..
    You should find lqawyers thru your local acquaintences, state bar lawyer referral service etc. Contingency is a possible approach - moar likley if you sue for violation of due process rights than directly for the gun in state court. See generally, and pass on to your prospective lawyers, Ford v. Turner (DC Ct. of App.) (holding that seized guns must be returned for failure to provide due process and providing for atty fee shifting).

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    2 young locap cops just CONFISCATED my revolver...

    I suggest, OP goes to nearest State Police station and ask to speak with a shift commander to discuss this issue with gun seized by local cops.


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    Just curious...since you probably didn't have 'proof' the pants you were wearing are yours, did the confiscate those also???? Dose that help illustrate how absurd this is?? I'd be screeming at my State Reps about lawsuites if this happened to me!
    Lower the crime rate by lowering the criminal survival rate!
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    I suggest, OP goes to nearest State Police station and ask to speak with a shift commander to discuss this issue with gun seized by local cops.


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    I'd suggest going to the nearest FBI or US Attorney's office and see about filing a criminal civil rights complaint under Title 18 USC 241 & 242; costs nothing and the officers involved, including any supervisors on tape advising the 2 that confronted you, could face up to 10 years in prison.

    Search 18 U.S.C. 241 : US Code - Section 241: Conspiracy against rights

    If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or
    intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth,
    Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any
    right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of
    the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same;
    or
    If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the
    premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free
    exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured -
    They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
    ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in
    violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an
    attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit
    aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined
    under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life,
    or both, or may be sentenced to death.
    18 USC 242 - Deprivation of rights under color of law

    Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    To all of you suggesting the OP tak his complaint to the State Police, the US Attorney, the FBI, or even a lawye on a contingency basis - Have you ever dealt with a situation like this in which you fiollowed the advice you are giving that actually was resolved in your favor?

    As unfortunate, iritating, and RCoD*-inducing as this sort of incident is, it has happened to so many others that there actually exisists a sort of step-by-step process to be followed that seems to get positive resoolution for the LAC who is screwed over. Let the OP follow that procedure without getting sidetracked. I'm somewhat surprized nobody has yet suggested calling his Congressman/Senator.

    stay safe,

    RCoD = Red Curtain of Death: it falls over your eyes when you see/read/hear about certain egregious incidents. Sort of a desire to see bloodshed committed in retaliation. Best not to follow up on the feeling.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    To all of you suggesting the OP tak his complaint to the State Police, the US Attorney, the FBI, or even a lawye on a contingency basis - Have you ever dealt with a situation like this in which you fiollowed the advice you are giving that actually was resolved in your favor?

    As unfortunate, iritating, and RCoD*-inducing as this sort of incident is, it has happened to so many others that there actually exisists a sort of step-by-step process to be followed that seems to get positive resoolution for the LAC who is screwed over. Let the OP follow that procedure without getting sidetracked. I'm somewhat surprized nobody has yet suggested calling his Congressman/Senator.

    stay safe,

    RCoD = Red Curtain of Death: it falls over your eyes when you see/read/hear about certain egregious incidents. Sort of a desire to see bloodshed committed in retaliation. Best not to follow up on the feeling.
    Agreed...if there is a way to get the pistol back, I would do so and THEN think about your next steps.

    Not sure what the local laws are like for you...so some research might be a REALLY good 1st step...including checking the local PD's website to see if they say anything useful for you.

    Did the police officers that took the pistol tell you what you needed to do, where and when? If not, a polite call to the police department asking might not be a bad next step if you don't already have this information.

    If you can get your pistol back, it is proof they took it. A good lawyer who is willing to split the proceeds might not hurt either.

    Just keep cool and document everything you can, and if you have a receipt, super!
    Last edited by carolina guy; 10-30-2012 at 11:10 AM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  19. #19
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    If it was me, but it is not, I would go to the chief first. Then go to the clerk of the court, ask to see a judge, and get a directed order. But that is only what I would do. You will have to pay a filing fee for the order if the judge gives it to you.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Just curious...does PA have some sort of civil seizure law applicable to firearms? If not, this really seems (without more information) like a 4th Amendment violation. I would make a good effort (and record and further conversations with the police) to get the pistol back and then sue to keep this from happening again.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  21. #21
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    Just curious...does PA have some sort of civil seizure law applicable to firearms? If not, this really seems (without more information) like a 4th Amendment violation. I would make a good effort (and record and further conversations with the police) to get the pistol back and then sue to keep this from happening again.
    If the Chief will not give the gun back, a judge is the quickest route. In this case I believe the judge will grant the order without a hearing as there was no arrest, or law violated. We used to do this in reverse to use firearms seized in a crime instead of destroying them, we would supply a list of firearms and the judge would direct the property to be used by the dept for whatever purpose. In some cases the firearms were directed back to the officer. It is pretty much a practice that is not done as the firearms are destroyed, PC and all that carp ya know. But maybe these two cops are hoping to get to keep OP's firearm.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    OP, please follow this link and read the information you see there. It is an article from a Pennsylvania MPOETC Newsletter (Municipal Police Officer's Education and Training Commission)...

    http://www.pa2a.org/wiki.php?wid=57

    Here is a link directly to the PA MPOETC site... http://www.mpoetc.state.pa.us/portal...letters/561272

    The article can be found within Newsletter Volume 34, Issue 4, December 2011. Hopefully this will give you some assistance is getting your property returned to you. The MPOETC is required yearly training for all PA LEOs in order to maintain their certification, and is not to be taken lightly by them.

    It also wouldn't be a bad idea to post this at pafoa.org. Others there have gone through this successfully, and done so without spending any money.

    What those officers did was both unethical and completely outside the law and their authority, IMO.

    Good luck. Please do not allow them to get away with this. They will only continue to do it.
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sedstar View Post
    ... something about this doesnt smell "legal" to me, but, i am not a lawyer...
    Isn't it about time you started thinking that way?

    Take a look at the Legal Page at the top of the forums; practing pro se. You might find some of it to be very interesting.

    Under no circumstances should you "talk" to the cops, those involved or their superiors in that police deparment. Do NOT deal with those people in any manner unless it's in writing and all correspondence from you to them should be send by CERTIFIED MAIL.

    tyc
    Last edited by tyc; 10-31-2012 at 06:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    I suggest, OP goes to nearest State Police station and ask to speak with a shift commander to discuss this issue with gun seized by local cops.
    Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
    I'm sure your suggestion was well intended but it'd be nice if you stopped making such suggestions.

    If you do not understand what was just said, I'll say it again - stop making such well intended but stupid suggestions. If as he reported the incident to us is true, you can cause that man a lot of trouble.

    Still don't understand? Go over to YOUTUBE and search for DON'T TALK TO THE COPS.

    tyc

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    update...

    original poster here.

    this was sunday night this happened... tuesday? I drove to the state police barracks. useless, they just said:

    "yeah, they can do that.... this is something you have to deal with that police department. Or the chief."

    "Well, they want my paperwork and i cant find it. What? I just never get my property back?"

    "Then, see the chief of that department... or the mayor. After THAT, the next step would be the district attorneys office in the chain of command."

    ======================================

    I went to the GUN store i thought i bought it at. They found the sale, about a little over a year ago. The owner and his employee assured me all the paperwork was in order, there was no reason anyone elses name shoul come back on the gun.

    They said it was too long to print out the original paperwork, they printed out a private sales recepit off the computer. Which didnt look very official, so, I asked them if they could at least put their name and number on it? They stamped it with a letterhead stamp.

    got BACK to the police station, it was about shift change time. Apparenty any cop can SEIZE a handgun, but only the CHIEF can order it given back to you, he just happened to be there.

    I shwed him the paper receipt the gun store gave me, and added that the owner said he was there for hours yet that night, to call if he had any questions. They gave me the gun back after the chief ordered it. (without calling the gun shop) mainly because i had a carry permit.

    as i left, the cops were tellign me I "need to get the gun in my name". I said "its already in my name. I bought it at a real gun store."

    "But, the database... you see...."

    "I told you the other night, I'm not beig rude, but, that database is not my concern. Do you have a FORM I fill out? You have a number i call? i dont know how to adjust that database."

    "Well... no, YOU have to do that!"

    "No, no i dont."

    "See, this persons NAME is on the data---"

    "Look guys, thats YOUR database. That makes it YOUR problem. The only way i know how to make an entry in that database, is to buy a gun at the gun store. I already DID that... I am not going to hire a lawyer, and spend hundreds of dollars updating someone elses database.... not trying to be rude, but, have a nice day guys... thanks for my gun back... (trudge trudge trudge)

    ================================================== ==========================================

    there's a certain irony at play here.... i realized on the trip down the station? The ONE young cop? THATS the cop that arrested a real live gangsta with stolen handguns in the car, ONE of which was MY gun. I'm actually quite PLEASED he got it back, and its supposedly in the state police barracks evidence room, eventually (some year) I get it back.

    for another thing, both young cops were POLITE from start to finish. I always compained that cops were rude, brusqu... or even yelling for no reason, throwing peopel around for no reason... these guys were both POLITE, i like that.

    I DO just HAPPEN to still have a "receipt" that says "gun not registered in his name".... written on it, LMAO...

    ================================================== ==========================================

    now that i know the police dapartment isnt trying to "steal" firearms, i feel a LITTLE better about it.... its just an "aggravation" to go find a "paperwork that has your name on it" (another quote off of the receipt that says "gun not registered in his name")

    the PA state police's "sales database" mght NOT legally be a "gun registration scheme"? BUT... to all cops, if the radio doesnt bring a handgun back ias "registered in your name" they confiscate it until you "prove" its really "yours".

    if someone moved here from OREGON to PENNSYLVANIA, I dont see how they are expected to "prove" that they legally own their handguns...

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