2 young local cops just CONFISCATED my revolver...

WalkingWolf · Oct 30, 2012

carolina guy said:
Just curious...does PA have some sort of civil seizure law applicable to firearms? If not, this really seems (without more information) like a 4th Amendment violation. I would make a good effort (and record and further conversations with the police) to get the pistol back and then sue to keep this from happening again.

If the Chief will not give the gun back, a judge is the quickest route. In this case I believe the judge will grant the order without a hearing as there was no arrest, or law violated. We used to do this in reverse to use firearms seized in a crime instead of destroying them, we would supply a list of firearms and the judge would direct the property to be used by the dept for whatever purpose. In some cases the firearms were directed back to the officer. It is pretty much a practice that is not done as the firearms are destroyed, PC and all that carp ya know. But maybe these two cops are hoping to get to keep OP's firearm.

Curmudgeon · Oct 31, 2012

OP, please follow this link and read the information you see there. It is an article from a Pennsylvania MPOETC Newsletter (Municipal Police Officer's Education and Training Commission)...

http://www.pa2a.org/wiki.php?wid=57

Here is a link directly to the PA MPOETC site... http://www.mpoetc.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/mpoetc/7545/newsletters/561272

The article can be found within Newsletter Volume 34, Issue 4, December 2011. Hopefully this will give you some assistance is getting your property returned to you. The MPOETC is required yearly training for all PA LEOs in order to maintain their certification, and is not to be taken lightly by them.

It also wouldn't be a bad idea to post this at pafoa.org. Others there have gone through this successfully, and done so without spending any money.

What those officers did was both unethical and completely outside the law and their authority, IMO.

Good luck. Please do not allow them to get away with this. They will only continue to do it.

tyc · Oct 31, 2012

sedstar said:
... something about this doesnt smell "legal" to me, but, i am not a lawyer...

Isn't it about time you started thinking that way?

Take a look at the Legal Page at the top of the forums; practing pro se. You might find some of it to be very interesting.

Under no circumstances should you "talk" to the cops, those involved or their superiors in that police deparment. Do NOT deal with those people in any manner unless it's in writing and all correspondence from you to them should be send by CERTIFIED MAIL.

tyc

tyc · Oct 31, 2012

GWbiker said:
I suggest, OP goes to nearest State Police station and ask to speak with a shift commander to discuss this issue with gun seized by local cops.
Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

I'm sure your suggestion was well intended but it'd be nice if you stopped making such suggestions.

If you do not understand what was just said, I'll say it again - stop making such well intended but stupid suggestions. If as he reported the incident to us is true, you can cause that man a lot of trouble.

Still don't understand? Go over to YOUTUBE and search for DON'T TALK TO THE COPS.

tyc

sedstar · Oct 31, 2012

update...

original poster here.

this was sunday night this happened... tuesday? I drove to the state police barracks. useless, they just said:

"yeah, they can do that.... this is something you have to deal with that police department. Or the chief."

"Well, they want my paperwork and i cant find it. What? I just never get my property back?"

"Then, see the chief of that department... or the mayor. After THAT, the next step would be the district attorneys office in the chain of command."

======================================

I went to the GUN store i thought i bought it at. They found the sale, about a little over a year ago. The owner and his employee assured me all the paperwork was in order, there was no reason anyone elses name shoul come back on the gun.

They said it was too long to print out the original paperwork, they printed out a private sales recepit off the computer. Which didnt look very official, so, I asked them if they could at least put their name and number on it? They stamped it with a letterhead stamp.

got BACK to the police station, it was about shift change time. Apparenty any cop can SEIZE a handgun, but only the CHIEF can order it given back to you, he just happened to be there.

I shwed him the paper receipt the gun store gave me, and added that the owner said he was there for hours yet that night, to call if he had any questions. They gave me the gun back after the chief ordered it. (without calling the gun shop) mainly because i had a carry permit.

as i left, the cops were tellign me I "need to get the gun in my name". I said "its already in my name. I bought it at a real gun store."

"But, the database... you see...."

"I told you the other night, I'm not beig rude, but, that database is not my concern. Do you have a FORM I fill out? You have a number i call? i dont know how to adjust that database."

"Well... no, YOU have to do that!"

"No, no i dont."

"See, this persons NAME is on the data---"

"Look guys, thats YOUR database. That makes it YOUR problem. The only way i know how to make an entry in that database, is to buy a gun at the gun store. I already DID that... I am not going to hire a lawyer, and spend hundreds of dollars updating someone elses database.... not trying to be rude, but, have a nice day guys... thanks for my gun back... (trudge trudge trudge)

============================================================================================

there's a certain irony at play here.... i realized on the trip down the station? The ONE young cop? THATS the cop that arrested a real live gangsta with stolen handguns in the car, ONE of which was MY gun. I'm actually quite PLEASED he got it back, and its supposedly in the state police barracks evidence room, eventually (some year) I get it back.

for another thing, both young cops were POLITE from start to finish. I always compained that cops were rude, brusqu... or even yelling for no reason, throwing peopel around for no reason... these guys were both POLITE, i like that.

I DO just HAPPEN to still have a "receipt" that says "gun not registered in his name".... written on it, LMAO...

============================================================================================

now that i know the police dapartment isnt trying to "steal" firearms, i feel a LITTLE better about it.... its just an "aggravation" to go find a "paperwork that has your name on it" (another quote off of the receipt that says "gun not registered in his name")

the PA state police's "sales database" mght NOT legally be a "gun registration scheme"? BUT... to all cops, if the radio doesnt bring a handgun back ias "registered in your name" they confiscate it until you "prove" its really "yours".

if someone moved here from OREGON to PENNSYLVANIA, I dont see how they are expected to "prove" that they legally own their handguns...

WalkingWolf · Oct 31, 2012

sedstar said:
original poster here.

this was sunday night this happened... tuesday? I drove to the state police barracks. useless, they just said:

"yeah, they can do that.... this is something you have to deal with that police department. Or the chief."

"Well, they want my paperwork and i cant find it. What? I just never get my property back?"

"Then, see the chief of that department... or the mayor. After THAT, the next step would be the district attorneys office in the chain of command."

======================================

I went to the GUN store i thought i bought it at. They found the sale, about a little over a year ago. The owner and his employee assured me all the paperwork was in order, there was no reason anyone elses name shoul come back on the gun.

They said it was too long to print out the original paperwork, they printed out a private sales recepit off the computer. Which didnt look very official, so, I asked them if they could at least put their name and number on it? They stamped it with a letterhead stamp.

got BACK to the police station, it was about shift change time. Apparenty any cop can SEIZE a handgun, but only the CHIEF can order it given back to you, he just happened to be there.

I shwed him the paper receipt the gun store gave me, and added that the owner said he was there for hours yet that night, to call if he had any questions. They gave me the gun back after the chief ordered it. (without calling the gun shop) mainly because i had a carry permit.

as i left, the cops were tellign me I "need to get the gun in my name". I said "its already in my name. I bought it at a real gun store."

"But, the database... you see...."

"I told you the other night, I'm not beig rude, but, that database is not my concern. Do you have a FORM I fill out? You have a number i call? i dont know how to adjust that database."

"Well... no, YOU have to do that!"

"No, no i dont."

"See, this persons NAME is on the data---"

"Look guys, thats YOUR database. That makes it YOUR problem. The only way i know how to make an entry in that database, is to buy a gun at the gun store. I already DID that... I am not going to hire a lawyer, and spend hundreds of dollars updating someone elses database.... not trying to be rude, but, have a nice day guys... thanks for my gun back... (trudge trudge trudge)

============================================================================================

there's a certain irony at play here.... i realized on the trip down the station? The ONE young cop? THATS the cop that arrested a real live gangsta with stolen handguns in the car, ONE of which was MY gun. I'm actually quite PLEASED he got it back, and its supposedly in the state police barracks evidence room, eventually (some year) I get it back.

for another thing, both young cops were POLITE from start to finish. I always compained that cops were rude, brusqu... or even yelling for no reason, throwing peopel around for no reason... these guys were both POLITE, i like that.

I DO just HAPPEN to still have a "receipt" that says "gun not registered in his name".... written on it, LMAO...

============================================================================================

now that i know the police dapartment isnt trying to "steal" firearms, i feel a LITTLE better about it.... its just an "aggravation" to go find a "paperwork that has your name on it" (another quote off of the receipt that says "gun not registered in his name")

the PA state police's "sales database" mght NOT legally be a "gun registration scheme"? BUT... to all cops, if the radio doesnt bring a handgun back ias "registered in your name" they confiscate it until you "prove" its really "yours".

if someone moved here from OREGON to PENNSYLVANIA, I dont see how they are expected to "prove" that they legally own their handguns...

It is a handgun confiscation scheme! You just called their bluff, a lot of people would not have. You could have got your gun back IMO without the receipt, plus damages. The whole idea no matter how polite they were was to steal your firearm. :banghead:

Polite does not make it right!

sedstar · Nov 1, 2012

yes....

yes, I KNOW that polite does not make it right.

The OVERALL problem? is basically no different than before OC itself started becoming "normal". IE, it always WAS LEGAL, it was just that all cops were taught to harass everyone, and to lie and make up laws that didnt exist about OC-ing.

It really doesnt matter what THE LAW is, as per the legislature... a large amount of "the law" is what exactly it gets INTERPETED AS by a judge in a county court, when you really think about it.

THIS is just another example of it... it is illegal to have GUN REGISTRATION in pennsylvania... the state police quietly go about it anyways, as best as they can... when they get legally CHALLENGED by legislator(s)??? They just basically ignore the legislators in a "what you going to DO about it?" sort of fashion.... the state supreme court basically found that its "legally" not a gun registration.

THATS a relief? isnt it? lmFao...

I am sitting here, right now, and i quote of of the paper i was given, in one of the cops own handwriting:

"357 Taurus revolver not registered in his name. Says he bought it. told to bring paperwork down with his name on it."

It may not "legally" be decided to BE a gun registration, but... it sure as heck IS ONE. Witness the cops own WORDS... bothon paper, and in PERSON? They told me a couple times leaving the station how I needed to "get the gun registered in my name" or it would be "a big problem".

==================================================================================

heres another example: if your "pulled over" late at night, in a deserted area, you are "allowed" to proceed slowly, to a better lit, more populated area, WHEN pulled over by an "unmarked car".

to quote a cop online: "Ha! I'd like to see you try THAT around HERE!"

which really... was the whole basic idea behind "open carry" all along, when you think about it...

Its not like I dont HAVE the piece of paper with the magic words on it "not registered in his name"... if this ever HELPS anyone do anything about it...

*shrugs*

WalkingWolf · Nov 1, 2012

sedstar said:
yes, I KNOW that polite does not make it right.

The OVERALL problem? is basically no different than before OC itself started becoming "normal". IE, it always WAS LEGAL, it was just that all cops were taught to harass everyone, and to lie and make up laws that didnt exist about OC-ing.

It really doesnt matter what THE LAW is, as per the legislature... a large amount of "the law" is what exactly it gets INTERPETED AS by a judge in a county court, when you really think about it.

THIS is just another example of it... it is illegal to have GUN REGISTRATION in pennsylvania... the state police quietly go about it anyways, as best as they can... when they get legally CHALLENGED by legislator(s)??? They just basically ignore the legislators in a "what you going to DO about it?" sort of fashion.... the state supreme court basically found that its "legally" not a gun registration.

THATS a relief? isnt it? lmFao...

I am sitting here, right now, and i quote of of the paper i was given, in one of the cops own handwriting:

"357 Taurus revolver not registered in his name. Says he bought it. told to bring paperwork down with his name on it."

It may not "legally" be decided to BE a gun registration, but... it sure as heck IS ONE. Witness the cops own WORDS... bothon paper, and in PERSON? They told me a couple times leaving the station how I needed to "get the gun registered in my name" or it would be "a big problem".

==================================================================================

heres another example: if your "pulled over" late at night, in a deserted area, you are "allowed" to proceed slowly, to a better lit, more populated area, WHEN pulled over by an "unmarked car".

to quote a cop online: "Ha! I'd like to see you try THAT around HERE!"

which really... was the whole basic idea behind "open carry" all along, when you think about it...

Its not like I dont HAVE the piece of paper with the magic words on it "not registered in his name"... if this ever HELPS anyone do anything about it...

*shrugs*

A gun is not a car and you are not required to carry registration papers. You should use this case to get a injunction against the police dept to put an end to it. They fully expected that you would not be able to get the gun back, no matter how polite. I can't imagine a judge ruling in their favor. The constitution says that property cannot be seized without due process. There is no due process in your case. INAL but this should be slam dunk IMO.

Steve in PA · Nov 1, 2012

What department where these officers from?? A police officer CANNOT seize a handgun based soley on the fact that it does not show up in a database or another name is attached to it.

I recommend you download the MPOETC Newsletter from December 2011 and show them this article, especially the 5th paragraph!

Firearm Record of Sale System and Law Enforcement By Trooper Paul Anderson, PSP

Law enforcement officers are often faced with the challenge of determining if a subject’s firearm does, in fact, belong to them. This information is not as easily obtained as one might think. The firearm information that is available to Pennsylvania (PA) law enforcement entities through CLEAN – FSADM (firearm records) is based on information provided by licensed firearm dealers in Pennsylvania, for legal sales and transfers of handguns in this state. This information is provided to the Pennsylvania State Police (PSP) through the submission of the SP4-113 Application/Record of Sale (ROS), which is statutorily mandated to be completed for the legal sale or transfer of a handgun. Once received by PSP, the ROS data is entered into the system and used for several reasons to include when attempting to return a firearm to its lawful owner.

The biggest misconception about the ROS information is that it is a registry of all firearms. This is not the case. PA statute prohibits maintenance of a firearms registry. Further, the data housed in the ROS database does not include long guns, firearms that are brought into the state, and certain exempted transfers of handguns between individuals as stated below.

As an example, if a subject moves into PA from another state and he brings firearms with him, these firearms and the corresponding information would not be in the ROS database. Only if the subject transfers a firearm while in PA, and a ROS is completed, is the information then contained in the ROS database.

Transfers of handguns between spouses, parent and child or grandparent and grandchild do not require a ROS form to be completed. If a ROS form is not completed and is not provided to PSP, no information pertaining to that transfer will be available through an FS ADM query.

Many in law enforcement query a subject’s firearm against the ROS system and confiscate it if the subject’s name is not associated with the firearm. The confiscation of a firearm should never be solely based on a negative response to a firearm records query. The totality of circumstances to include your department’s policies should be taken into consideration when making a determination of whether confiscation is appropriate.

It should also be noted that PA law provides for loaning a firearm to an individual who has a license to carry a firearm issued in PA (see 18 Pa. C.S. §6115). Thus in this circumstance, a subject who has a valid license to carry issued in PA can legally carry a handgun even if they do not own it.

Should you have any questions concerning this information please contact
Trooper Paul K. Anderson, Supervisor,
Firearm Administrative Section, at 717- 346-3091.

http://www.mpoetc.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/mpoetc/7545/newsletters/561272

tyc · Nov 1, 2012

Steve in PA said:
What department where these officers from??

Firearm Record of Sale System and Law Enforcement By Trooper Paul Anderson, PSP
Law enforcement officers are often faced with the challenge of determining if a subject’s firearm does, in fact, belong to them. This information is not as easily obtained as one might think. The firearm information that is available to Pennsylvania (PA) law enforcement entities through CLEAN – FSADM (firearm records) is based on information provided by licensed firearm dealers in Pennsylvania, for legal sales and transfers of handguns in this state. This information is provided to the Pennsylvania State Police (PSP) through the submission of the SP4-113 Application/Record of Sale (ROS), which is statutorily mandated to be completed for the legal sale or transfer of a handgun. Once received by PSP, the ROS data is entered into the system and used for several reasons to include when attempting to return a firearm to its lawful owner.

The biggest misconception about the ROS information is that it is a registry of all firearms. This is not the case. PA statute prohibits maintenance of a firearms registry. Further, the data housed in the ROS database does not include long guns, firearms that are brought into the state, and certain exempted transfers of handguns between individuals as stated below.

Should you have any questions concerning this information please contact
Trooper Paul K. Anderson, Supervisor,
Firearm Administrative Section, at 717- 346-3091.

If what you have told us here is true, it would indeed be very interesting to know which police department is involved. The names of the officers and their supervisor has no value to any of us.

It is my understanding that such a database exists and that the PA State Police have been sued several times in order to get them to totally destroy that data - and they have refused to do so.

As for the suggestion to contact Trooper Paul K. Anderson .......... DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE! .......... The Pennsylvania State Police come from a background of nothing more than a group of hired goons and thugs who were used to help break unions. Even in this day and age, they're still a "mixed bag" in that regard.

With the above said and in mind - FIRST - get competent legal counsel! For the most part this forum has provided you with good, sound advice. If you want that revolver back, review this forum from top to bottom again, and if necessary, do it again.

tyc

OC for ME · Nov 1, 2012

Uh.....I think he stated that he got his gun back from the cops. There seems to be another gun (stolen) that currently is in the SP evidence locker. Good luck getting that one back.

Steve in PA · Nov 1, 2012

tyc said:
If what you have told us here is true, it would indeed be very interesting to know which police department is involved. The names of the officers and their supervisor has no value to any of us.

It is my understanding that such a database exists and that the PA State Police have been sued several times in order to get them to totally destroy that data - and they have refused to do so.

As for the suggestion to contact Trooper Paul K. Anderson .......... DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE! .......... The Pennsylvania State Police come from a background of nothing more than a group of hired goons and thugs who were used to help break unions. Even in this day and age, they're still a "mixed bag" in that regard.

With the above said and in mind - FIRST - get competent legal counsel! For the most part this forum has provided you with good, sound advice. If you want that revolver back, review this forum from top to bottom again, and if necessary, do it again.

tyc

The article I posted and the suggestion to contact the trooper was for and directed to law enforcement officers in regards to questions about the record of sale.

MKEgal · Nov 1, 2012

I always knew that any time a cop runs across any gun, they have to play with it and run the numbers over the radio... when it doesnt come back "stolen" you get it back immediately

No, you don't even have to let them run the serial number without a warrant or RAS that it's stolen.
Depending on your state's laws, you may be forced to allow them to take it from you for the duration of a traffic stop.

JoeSparky said:
Seems to me that if they, the police, have no record of that firearm being stolen then they would have to prove that it was prior to confiscation.

That makes too much sense. Why should they follow the law?

skidmark said:
To all of you suggesting the OP tak his complaint to the State Police, the US Attorney, the FBI, or even a lawyer on a contingency basis - Have you ever dealt with a situation like this in which you followed the advice you are giving that actually was resolved in your favor?

Yes, several times. Not the 'talk to police' part, but the 'talk with a lawyer' part.
In fact, I'll PM the OP info on a 2A friendly civil rights lawyer who has done good things for me & for some friends when the police mistreated us.

rodlxix · Nov 5, 2012

It's all good

Dont get me wrong, I would like to see these two officers reprimanded and policies changed, as much as anyone. However, the gun has been returned and other than some gas and time no harm no foul. I personally have carry permit, and do so frequently. There is alot of people out there that would flip-out seeing someone (legal or not) carrying in public. Knowing this I wouldn't open carry. I know its legal, but once you have someone call 911 because they see a gun (as much fun as that sounds), your on the police "radar", as such maybe open to harassment.

Anyway, good or bad, Just saying maybe its good you took the route you took, and not hired a lawyer, sued, ect.. Hopefully you wont be subject to police harassment.
From now on.
Good luck

Citizen · Nov 5, 2012

rodlxix said:
Dont get me wrong, I would like to see these two officers reprimanded and policies changed, as much as anyone. However, the gun has been returned and other than some gas and time no harm no foul. I personally have carry permit, and do so frequently. There is alot of people out there that would flip-out seeing someone (legal or not) carrying in public. Knowing this I wouldn't open carry. I know its legal, but once you have someone call 911 because they see a gun (as much fun as that sounds), your on the police "radar", as such maybe open to harassment.

Anyway, good or bad, Just saying maybe its good you took the route you took, and not hired a lawyer, sued, ect.. Hopefully you wont be subject to police harassment.
From now on.
Good luck

Oh, yes. You must mean besides the fact that police took actions for which they had no authority in a nation and commonwealth where the government only has the authority it is delegated. And, even worse, the police pretended to manufacture probable cause to seize a gun just because it didn't show up in the government's database assigned to him.

I am sure you didn't mean to overlook the Fourth Amendment guarantee against unreasonable search and seizure, and the probable cause aspect of the same Amendment.

And, there is no point in being indignant about a police department or even two cops just making up the rules as they go along and then enforcing them on an unsuspecting citizen.

Besides those things, you are right. No harm, no foul.

ETA: Sorry. That was a bit sarcastic. I apologize. Welcome to OCDO. Please subtract the sarcasm and just view those points as if written non-sarcastically.

rodlxix · Nov 5, 2012

"show me the money" or shut up

I see alot of people trying to get sedstar to make an example of these officers for these offenses and their chief for his involvement and Ford for making the car they drive and the manufacturer of their clothes for their part, but I dont see anyone offering their hard earned money or the homes so he can take off work and fight for us.

I wish he could, for that matter, I wish I could.

I'm just saying, MAYBE, what happened is best for him.

No sarcasizm meant here either

Citizen · Nov 5, 2012

rodlxix said:
I see alot of people trying to get sedstar to make an example of these officers for these offenses and their chief for his involvement and Ford for making the car they drive and the manufacturer of their clothes for their part, but I dont see anyone offering their hard earned money or the homes so he can take off work and fight for us.

I wish he could, for that matter, I wish I could.

I'm just saying, MAYBE, what happened is best for him.

No sarcasizm meant here either

I understand. Thanks for clarifying.

tyc · Nov 5, 2012

rodlxix said:
I see alot of people trying to get sedstar to make an example of these officers for these offenses and their chief for his involvement ... but I dont see anyone offering ... fight for us.
... what happened is best for him.

Do your own fighting ... win or loose ... do your own fighing.

The suggestion to go pro se was there but as with far too many in this day and age, there is an almost insane disinterst in doing so - and it's so easy and so inexpensive but as you say, what happened was probably best for him.

tyc

saiga12boy · Nov 5, 2012

That's why you NEVER let cops touch your gun.

Citizen · Nov 6, 2012

saiga12boy said:
That's why you NEVER let cops touch your gun.

I hope you mean "never verbally consent to police seizing your gun."

If a cop ignores your verbally refused consent and reaches for it, I would strongly urge letting him take it. Physically resisting could get you proned-out on the pavement and possibly charged with obstruction. In short, if the cop really wants your gun, he's going to get it, even if he has to call all his buddies on the radio; the only question is how badly you are going to get hurt and how deep the legal trouble.

2 young local cops just CONFISCATED my revolver...

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