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Thread: CADL reversal and open carry in schools

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    CADL reversal and open carry in schools

    Does the recent reversal of the CADL case have any immediate effect on the recent incidences of schoold districts banning open carry in their schools?

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CADL reversal and open carry in schools

    Funny you ask. Same thing being discussed on MCO. I'll summarize 4 pages of discussion: we don't know.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Michigan Codified Law 750.237a(5)(c), as is found within Chapter XXXVII of ACT 328 of 1931, says that The Provisions of what is Considered 'Proscribed Conduct' does NOT Apply to any Person who is: '...[L]icensed by This State or another State to Carry a Concealed Weapon.' .

    The Argument that 'Schools' are NOT 'Local Governmental Units' as are Defined under Section 1102(a) of Chapter 123 under ACT 319 of 1990, may NOT Defend a School under Attack for its Illegal Policies Pursuant to The Order and Llweyn Argument that The Michigan Appeals Court Issued against CADL.

    The Michigan Appeals Court did, however, have 1 Lone Dissenting Justice who Left Open The Argument that Legislative Oversight may be Needed to Correct The Current Deficiency in what Michigan Considers a Local Governmental Unit. I Surmise that The Following Language be Inserted within The Statute:

    1102(a) [...] [For The Purposes of This Chapter, The Term 'Local Governmental Unit' also Includes all of The Following: any Agency, any Authority, any Board, any Body, any Bureau, any Committee, any Commission, any Department, any Division, any Entity, or any other Instrumentality of any City, County, Township, or Village, and Includes, without Limitation, whether such is Created by, among, or between Them, whether for a General Purpose, Special Purpose, Temporary Purpose, or a Special Purpose, and regardless if The Same is only Established by 1 of Those Units, or more than 1 of Those Units in a Joint-Partnership.

    Then again though..., I am NOT a Member of The Michigan Legislature...

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenletters View Post
    Does the recent reversal of the CADL case have any immediate effect on the recent incidences of schoold districts banning open carry in their schools?
    The court found that CADL was a "quasi-municipal corporation, i.e., a governmental agency authorized by constitution or statute to operate for and about the business of the state."

    It then went on to say that such a corporation or agency is subject to preemption in regulating firearms.

    So, if a school district is a "quasi-municipal corporation, i.e., a governmental agency authorized by constitution or statute to operate for and about the business of the state", then it can be likewise subject to preemption. Those school districts that have banned OC either will agree that they are such a corporation or agency and will get out of the business of regulating firearms, or they will not. If not, they will have to be taken to court. The strategy in court would be either to have them ruled that they are such an agency or corporation or via some other avenue that preemption applies to them.
    Last edited by DanM; 10-29-2012 at 03:36 PM.
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    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CADL reversal and open carry in schools

    Like I said, 4 pages of debate over on MGO making arguments on both side (lawyers also making arguments on both sides).

    Stu says: no, k-12/comm colleges/unis won't be impacted.

    Shyster say: yes

    So the answer is: we don't know.


    I personally could make arguments both for and against.
    Last edited by TheQ; 10-29-2012 at 03:53 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Could you please provide a link to the MGO thread? Thank you

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CADL reversal and open carry in schools

    Quote Originally Posted by tenletters View Post
    Could you please provide a link to the MGO thread? Thank you
    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...d.php?t=199393

    You have to be signed in with a free account to view the thread.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Like I said, 4 pages of debate over on MGO making arguments on both side (lawyers also making arguments on both sides).

    Stu says: no, k-12/comm colleges/unis won't be impacted.

    Shyster say: yes
    Where does Stu say that? In the thread you linked, Stu says a good case can be made for preemption (and he would like to go after UofM), SteveS agreed, and Shyster didn't say anything except "hmmmm."
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...d.php?t=199393

    You have to be signed in with a free account to view the thread.
    The discussion there is centered more around universities and not public school districts. I am not a lawyer, but I think the matter regarding school districts is much clearer that preemption would apply... the argument that school districts are "quasi-municipal corporations" was pretty explicit.

    However, in regards to universities and colleges, they have at times been considered exempt from state law and other times it has been decided that they must follow state law, especially in matters of important public policy. That being the case, until we actually have a case in which a university's ordinances are are argued in front of a judge, we really don't know. But, the issue regarding k-12 school districts appears to have been covered in this decision. Does anyone know if CADL is going to appeal to the MI Supreme Court?
    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-29-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Does anyone know if CADL is going to appeal to the MI Supreme Court?
    The board hasn't made a decision yet.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CADL reversal and open carry in schools

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    The board hasn't made a decision yet.
    If they do, I'm sure Dean will be the first to find out. I'll probably be the second.
    Last edited by TheQ; 10-29-2012 at 06:30 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    has the FOIA request been submitted to find out the total taxpayer cost of this endeavor?
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    has the FOIA request been submitted to find out the total taxpayer cost of this endeavor?
    Yes. I submitted one a few days ago (Friday, the day the Court of Appeals decision was published).
    Last edited by griffin; 10-29-2012 at 08:51 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
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    Because I believe this whole case was an attempt to bring in a new era of gun control by using "Authorities" of all kinds to ban guns everywhere from libraries to Downtown Development Authorities to an as yet to have been created The Anti Gun We Are Gonna Ban All Guns Authority.... I think if would be interesting to see if all monies used by the library for legal expenditures were from taxpayers of if there were contributions made to the library from ... say... moveon.org or a similar gun control entity.

    Or perhaps I've become overly suspicious of late.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CADL reversal and open carry in schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Because I believe this whole case was an attempt to bring in a new era of gun control by using "Authorities" of all kinds to ban guns everywhere from libraries to Downtown Development Authorities to an as yet to have been created The Anti Gun We Are Gonna Ban All Guns Authority.... I think if would be interesting to see if all monies used by the library for legal expenditures were from taxpayers of if there were contributions made to the library from ... say... moveon.org or a similar gun control entity.

    Or perhaps I've become overly suspicious of late.
    I think that's in the FOIA
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Like I said, 4 pages of debate over on MGO making arguments on both side (lawyers also making arguments on both sides).

    Stu says: no, k-12/comm colleges/unis won't be impacted.

    Shyster say: yes

    So the answer is: we don't know.


    I personally could make arguments both for and against.
    I just read this thread on MGO. My feeling from the discussion is that most, including attorneys are actually cautiously agree that preemption should apply to public schools, colleges and universities as a result of the recent CoA ruling.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CADL reversal and open carry in schools

    Quote Originally Posted by sasha601 View Post
    I just read this thread on MGO. My feeling from the discussion is that most, including attorneys are actually cautiously agree that preemption should apply to public schools, colleges and universities as a result of the recent CoA ruling.
    In another thread (it's in the OC forum maybe or the gun rights litigation forum) Stu said not so much *shrugs*.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    It will apply to schools also, but it will have to go through the courts first.
    I assume you mean a public school that has taken upon itself to regulate firearms. There are steps that can be taken, in order of escalation, before court action:

    1) You personally can communicate with the school and its attorney, referencing the CADL v MOC decision.

    2) Request a gun-rights advocacy group (MOC, MGO, etc.) communicate to the school.

    3) Have your attorney communicate to the school (make sure she/he is aware of CADL v MOC).
    Last edited by DanM; 10-30-2012 at 10:41 AM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CADL reversal and open carry in schools

    Before anyone does anything, I think it's best we let the case "settle in".

    If you want to know why or how long, PM me.
    Last edited by TheQ; 10-30-2012 at 11:04 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Before anyone does anything, I think it's best we let the case "settle in".

    If you want to know why or how long, PM me.
    agreed! let the dust settle before we kick more up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Before anyone does anything, I think it's best we let the case "settle in".

    If you want to know why or how long, PM me.
    40 days?

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CADL reversal and open carry in schools

    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    40 days?
    and 40 nights
    Last edited by TheQ; 10-30-2012 at 01:40 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Before anyone does anything, I think it's best we let the case "settle in".

    If you want to know why or how long, PM me.
    I have personally OC'ed at Royal Oak High School to Vote Four (4) Times with No Issue Whatsoever even before the MI CofA Opinion/Decision was finalized. The following are my resources to back this up:

    Here are some resources that one can print up and use in the event someone gives you cause for concern:

    1. You are termed an "elector" per the Constitution of Michigan of 1963 in Article II Section 1. Link: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-Article-II-1

    2. CPL Holders can Open Carry in MI CPL Pistol Free Zones per Michigan State Police Legal Update #86. Link: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    3. Every elector is privileged from arrest while going to, attending, and returning from elections in all cases except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace. Link: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-600-1825

    4. Michigan Attorney General Opinion #7101: Holstered Handgun Openly Carried is not brandishing. Link: http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10176.htm

    5. Michigan Attorney General Opinion #7113: Holstered Handgun Openly Carried can be carried in Gun Free Zones. Link: http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10188.htm

    6. Local Unit of Government cannot Regulate Firearms. Link: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-123-1102

    7. A person shall not attempt, by means of bribery, menace, or other corrupt means or device, either directly or indirectly, to influence an elector in giving his or her vote, or to deter the elector from, or interrupt the elector in giving his or her vote at any election held in this state. THIS IS A FELONY. Link: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-168-932

    IANAL YMMV
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    Still haven't decided 100% if I'm going to OC tomorrow with CPL while I vote at Farmington HS.

    Guess, I should just print off all the lists (as I know them pretty well) but to show them to anyone giving me a hard time.

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    good info, thanks!
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