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Thread: CCDW,school zone,4A...what would you do?

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    CCDW,school zone,4A...what would you do?

    I know some of you hate these "what if" questions, but I'm curious what you would do. Lets say that you have a KY CCDW permit but are OC'ing withn a 1000ft of a school zone. LEO(city,county or state) pulls up and tells you that you are in violation of a federal law for having a firearm within 1000ft of said school. You explain to him that you have a CCDW so therefor you are exempt from this law. He then ask to see your CCDW to confirm that you are legal (federally speaking) to have a firearm that close to the school.

    Would you show your CCDW or would you refuse? I don't know what I would do because he can't enforce federal law so I feel I shouldn't give up my 4th. But I don't know if he would have RAS or PC.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

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    He COULD hold you for the federal government until someone came and picked you up, so I would just show him the CDWL. If anyone knows me they know that I refuse to give up my Constitutional rights, but in this situation he would have RAS to detain you until someone that had authority to enforce federal law showed up. Hand them the license and be on your way. If they start wanting more than that, or if they try to disarm you I would keep quiet and let them either arrest you or let you go on your way. If they arrest then you want a lawyer immediately; if they let you go then you begin a lawsuit if you wish depending on the circumstances.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I know some of you hate these "what if" questions, but I'm curious what you would do. Lets say that you have a KY CCDW permit but are OC'ing withn a 1000ft of a school zone. LEO(city,county or state) pulls up and tells you that you are in violation of a federal law for having a firearm within 1000ft of said school. You explain to him that you have a CCDW so therefor you are exempt from this law. He then ask to see your CCDW to confirm that you are legal (federally speaking) to have a firearm that close to the school.

    Would you show your CCDW or would you refuse? I don't know what I would do because he can't enforce federal law so I feel I shouldn't give up my 4th. But I don't know if he would have RAS or PC.
    Well, based solely upon your scenario. You would've already told the LEO that you have a CCDW and although it only pertains to the situation in theory of law, being that you're of course NOT carrying concealed. But it does give you the exemption from that nasty & absurd federal law. Under KRS, you must present your CCDW upon request of an LEO and being that it would save your ass in this situation and you've already told them that you have one, why wouldn't you present it?
    Last edited by neuroblades; 11-04-2012 at 06:59 PM.
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    Under KRS, you must present your CCDW upon request of an LEO and being that it would save your ass in this situation and you've already told them that you have one, why wouldn't you present it?
    I always took it that you had to present upon request of LEO only if you were CC. They never really said anything about presenting if due to the GFSZA. And to answer your second question, I probably would present it in this situation. Just because I told him I have one doesn't mean he needs to see it. (in this situation he probably would) but I was thinking of my CCDW more as a drivers license(considering they both pretty much have the same info listed) and LEO asking to see it without RAS/PC.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I always took it that you had to present upon request of LEO only if you were CC. They never really said anything about presenting if due to the GFSZA. And to answer your second question, I probably would present it in this situation. Just because I told him I have one doesn't mean he needs to see it. (in this situation he probably would) but I was thinking of my CCDW more as a drivers license(considering they both pretty much have the same info listed) and LEO asking to see it without RAS/PC.
    You are correct. The only time you must show your CDWL is if you are CCarrying and the officer asks to see it. This situation, however, would be one time when you would need to show it regardless of how you were carrying because without it you are violating a federal statute.

    To those that will raise a fit because I have stated this: NO, a local or state officer cannot arrest for violation of federal law -- but they CAN detain.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    My question was asked because to me it seemed to be one of those "damn if ya do, damn if ya don't" kinda situations. So thanks for everyone's input. But if I am ever stopped within 1000ft of a school for OC, I will present my CDWL.



    By the way, the Owingsville city hall and 65.870 is sorta the reason I ask this question in the first place. Things may get a little hairy around here come Jan. 15th.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I wouldn't show them my CDWL. I think that GFSZ is bull and I won't support it by complying with it.

    Kentucky statutes have "resonable restrictions" when it comes to firearms and schools, the Feds skipped resonable and went to insane.

    If I was to rewrite the constitution then I would give the congress powers to TAX interstate comerce, not regulate it and we wouldn't have any of this nasty mess. Congress has stretched the comerce clause into something it is not suppose to be, much like an anus in prison. And I equate it to the same, congress is raping the american people every time they write themselve another "authority".
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    A CCDW license exempts you? how? More info please...

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    Thanks gut... so basically the 1000 ft law, i am exempt... but still no ccdw on grounds or in building... protects licensee walking up the sidewalk near school grounds..

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    Clarification needed

    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Yes, but notice it only applies in the state where the license is issued. Of course, in Ky. we are allowed to keep a gun in our car on school grounds.
    I have thought about how this law could be interpreted many times. I am still confused however. Realizing this is not a place for official legal advice - how do you feel this applies to a vehicle on school grounds that is unattended? In other words, IF the ADULT WHO OWNS (NOT POSSESSES-SINCE THEY WILL BE INSIDE) THE FIREARM IS NOT ACTIVELY "OPERATING" THE VEHICLE?

    In other words, a teacher (regardless of what local board policy is).


    527.070
    (3) The provisions of this section prohibiting the unlawful possession of a weapon on
    school property shall not apply to:
    (a) An adult who possesses a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a vehicle
    operated by the adult and is not removed from the vehicle, except for a
    purpose permitted herein, or brandished by the adult, or by any other person
    acting with expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on
    school property
    Last edited by jaymack; 11-12-2012 at 08:52 PM. Reason: to add emphasis to words in law cite

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaymack View Post
    I have thought about how this law could be interpreted many times. I am still confused however. Realizing this is not a place for official legal advice - how do you feel this applies to a vehicle on school grounds that is unattended? In other words, IF the ADULT WHO OWNS (NOT POSSESSES-SINCE THEY WILL BE INSIDE) THE FIREARM IS NOT ACTIVELY "OPERATING" THE VEHICLE?

    In other words, a teacher (regardless of what local board policy is).


    527.070
    (3) The provisions of this section prohibiting the unlawful possession of a weapon on
    school property shall not apply to:
    (a) An adult who possesses a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a vehicle
    operated by the adult and is not removed from the vehicle, except for a
    purpose permitted herein, or brandished by the adult, or by any other person
    acting with expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on
    school property
    You MUST take ALL relevant statutes into consideration when trying to determine the legality of an action. Gutshot has pointed out the statute that would be conidered with the others to determine that keeping a firearm in your vehicle on k-12 school property is legal with a CDWL. There are other statutes, but this is the most important.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    You MUST take ALL relevant statutes into consideration when trying to determine the legality of an action. Gutshot has pointed out the statute that would be conidered with the others to determine that keeping a firearm in your vehicle on k-12 school property is legal with a CDWL. There are other statutes, but this is the most important.
    Point taken. Thanks to both of you. Couldn't see the forest for the trees.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaymack View Post
    I have thought about how this law could be interpreted many times. I am still confused however. Realizing this is not a place for official legal advice - how do you feel this applies to a vehicle on school grounds that is unattended? In other words, IF the ADULT WHO OWNS (NOT POSSESSES-SINCE THEY WILL BE INSIDE) THE FIREARM IS NOT ACTIVELY "OPERATING" THE VEHICLE?

    In other words, a teacher (regardless of what local board policy is).


    527.070
    (3) The provisions of this section prohibiting the unlawful possession of a weapon on
    school property shall not apply to:
    (a) An adult who possesses a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a vehicle
    operated by the adult and is not removed from the vehicle, except for a
    purpose permitted herein, or brandished by the adult, or by any other person
    acting with expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on
    school property
    For some reason I thought you could only have it during drop off and pick up times.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    For some reason I thought you could only have it during drop off and pick up times.
    The intent of the law, as I see it, was to prevent citizens from being disarmed in their comings and goings. If you couldn't have a firearm in your car at a particular location, you were effectively disarmed going to and from that location. Since teachers actually work there and parents may have to be there for things other than pickup and drop off, it only makes sense to allow a firearm in your vehicle essentially everywhere. Of course Federal grounds are exempt from this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    For some reason I thought you could only have it during drop off and pick up times.
    Again, you must take ALL relevant statutes into consideration.

    KRS 237.110(17) is the important statute for those that have a CDWL, and KRS 237.106 would also apply.

    We must remember that unless we have a CDWL issued by the state we are carrying in, then the FGFSZ applies, and we cannot carry within 1,000 feet of school property without violating Federal law.

    KRS 237.106 would protect those that do not have a CDWL at the State level, but it would NOT protect anyone from prosecution at the Federal level.

    KRS 527.070 was established in 1996; KRS 237.106 was established in 2006. The dates when a statute took effect are often brought into consideration by the courts when determining the validity of a specific statute. Since KRS 237.106 was created after KRS 527.070, and it does not specifically mention KRS 527.070 as being exempted, then KRS 237.106 would apply to k-12 property (this is because it is assumed the GA had known of KRS 527.070 when they passed KRS 237.106). KRS 237.106 does give mention that the Statute does not apply if firearms are already prohibited at a certain place in another statute, but KRS 527.070 does not COMPLETELY prohibit the possession of firearms on school property, and allows possession of firearms as long as they are kept within a personally-owned-vehicle.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 11-19-2012 at 11:59 AM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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