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Thread: Gold Carry State

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    Gold Carry State

    Gold carry state my ...you know what.

    No restaurant carry, a "permit to purchase" requirement, and OC is not entirely prempted. What a joke.

    We gotta get this stuff fixed. Just sayin.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trooper46 View Post
    Gold carry state my ...you know what.

    No restaurant carry, a "permit to purchase" requirement, and OC is not entirely prempted. What a joke.

    We gotta get this stuff fixed. Just sayin.
    Outside the state restrictions, where is OC not preempted?

    I believe even constitutional carry states have restrictions, I agree things could be better, but most of that is because of the privilege card holders who are all too eager to settle for less.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 11-02-2012 at 09:11 PM.
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    It boils down to a few things. We have multiple, long standing case law that rules that OC is the Constitutional right of the people. And OC is therefore not addressed by legislation but case law and there are no permit requirements to carry.

    And yes, there are things I would like to see fixed as well. Better than some, worse than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    It boils down to a few things. We have multiple, long standing case law that rules that OC is the Constitutional right of the people. And OC is therefore not addressed by legislation but case law and there are no permit requirements to carry.

    And yes, there are things I would like to see fixed as well. Better than some, worse than others.
    OC is addressed in a few restrictions, such as business that sells and serves alcohol, or assemblies that charge admission. Most everyplace else is open to open carry. But I think(not sure) were put in place when the privilege laws were enacted. As long as I can OC I could care less about CC. I was darn ticked off when GRNC tried to tie restaurant carry to a privilege card, not just PO'd but outright insulted. Take one step towards tying carry to privilege cards and we will all be forced to get them to OC, like other states.

    For me it is Constitutional Carry or keep what we got now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    OC is addressed in a few restrictions, such as business that sells and serves alcohol, or assemblies that charge admission. Most everyplace else is open to open carry. But I think(not sure) were put in place when the privilege laws were enacted. As long as I can OC I could care less about CC. I was darn ticked off when GRNC tried to tie restaurant carry to a privilege card, not just PO'd but outright insulted. Take one step towards tying carry to privilege cards and we will all be forced to get them to OC, like other states.

    For me it is Constitutional Carry or keep what we got now.
    There is a way to change to Constitutional Carry.
    1. Find a member of the GA to introduce it.
    2. Convince a majority of the members of the GA to vote for it.
    3. Convince the Governor not to veto it.

    That shouldn't be too hard to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trooper46 View Post
    Gold carry state my ...you know what.

    No restaurant carry, a "permit to purchase" requirement, and OC is not entirely prempted. What a joke.

    We gotta get this stuff fixed. Just sayin.
    Open carry categorization has nothing to do with restaurant carry or purchase regulations. To be a gold star open carry state, a state must generally allow open carry without a permit and generally preempt localities from banning open carry. NC state statute preempts localities generally from banning open carry on streets, sidewalks, and public places; the NC S. Ct. in State v. Kerner forbids NC or its localities from banning or requiring a license to open carry military sized handguns. Several localities have minimum handgun sizes. so just open carry real handguns, not pocket rockets. It's the law!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketdad View Post
    There is a way to change to Constitutional Carry.
    1. Find a member of the GA to introduce it.
    2. Convince a majority of the members of the GA to vote for it.
    3. Convince the Governor not to veto it.

    That shouldn't be too hard to do.
    Sounds like a plan! lol Unfortunately we are loosing one of the guys that might have introduced it from Catawba county.


    WW, restrictions are addressed but the legality of OC is not addressed in the statutes. That was more of what I was trying to get at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Sounds like a plan! lol Unfortunately we are loosing one of the guys that might have introduced it from Catawba county.


    WW, restrictions are addressed but the legality of OC is not addressed in the statutes. That was more of what I was trying to get at.
    OC is not legal in the state. OC is not illegal. Once you start addressing OC with statutes then it become regulated, We don't want that.

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    "Sec. 30. Militia and the right to bear arms.

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice."

    We need no statutes to cover OC, we have the US and NC constitution and NC Supreme court rulings to stand on. To those CC lovers who would like to infringe on the OC right, please read above. This is why I am so against tying any right such as restaurant carry to the privilege card, if they did and it was accepted the GA might get the idea they could tie OC to the card as other states have. I appreciate what GRNC has done, but back off trying to expand carrying under the umbrella of a privilege, that is not supporting the RKBA. Personally I wish they never enacted the concealed carry law. There were a lot more OCing in our area when there was no CC law, and it was no hassle OCing.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 11-04-2012 at 01:31 PM.
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    I think we are chasing each other in circles saying the same thing differently.

    Question though. Is there anyone in the legislature that seems to be willing to address Constitutional Carry? Or any of the other issues like Restaurants that serve or school property issues? The main reason my wife does not carry right know is the school issue. It's maddening to deal with some of these things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    I think we are chasing each other in circles saying the same thing differently.

    Question though. Is there anyone in the legislature that seems to be willing to address Constitutional Carry? Or any of the other issues like Restaurants that serve or school property issues? The main reason my wife does not carry right know is the school issue. It's maddening to deal with some of these things.
    GRNC addressed and pushed for a bill that would have allowed resturant carry with a privilege card. Initial I had contacted my reps backing it out of respect for CCers. But since CCers and some who are members of GRNC showed so much disrespect towards OCers I have changed my position. I have on my own mailed reps to ask for constitutional carry, but I am but one person. IMO GRNC is only a tad better than NRA, which have become completely political and more worried about their own hides and interests instead of RKBA.

    As far as the school issue you should not worry about it too much. The feds do not seem to be patrolling the schools, and the only cases have been in conjunction with other infractions of the law. Again you can get around it by getting a privilege card, supposedly. Government seems to be on a kick of turning rights into privileges which can be taken away at anytime they want. You can also carry a antique firearm(cap and ball) legally, the best for this is the 1858 Remington IMO. Though you may run into problems convincing police as they do not know the law very well. GFSZA has no jurisdiction on private property such as store parking lots or stores within the zone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    GRNC addressed and pushed for a bill that would have allowed resturant carry with a privilege card. Initial I had contacted my reps backing it out of respect for CCers. But since CCers and some who are members of GRNC showed so much disrespect towards OCers I have changed my position. I have on my own mailed reps to ask for constitutional carry, but I am but one person. IMO GRNC is only a tad better than NRA, which have become completely political and more worried about their own hides and interests instead of RKBA.
    Did you get any response from them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketdad View Post
    Did you get any response from them?
    Actually no, at least not yet, but then this is a election year, and they are probably busy with stuff. It hasn't been that long ago. I usually get faster response to emails. I got responses from McCain in 2008, and I have received responses from Romney. I have emailed Obama, but I believe his handlers delete anything that counters his agenda. Of course though if my wife gets to the mailbox she throws away anything that looks like junk mail.
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    I have been asked by Paul Valone to re post this.


    To those who complain that HB 111, which would eliminate restrictions on concealed handgun permit-holders in restaurants and parks, fails to include open carry in those areas, a reality check is in order, particularly with regard to open carry in bars.

    Yes, “bars” are what we are talking about. Having wrangled with the problem since 1997 (SB 1), I have a fair idea of what I’m talking about. You see, under § 18B-1000, “bars” do not exist in North Carolina. All such establishments are “restaurants,” and all theoretically derive at least 30% of revenues from food and non-alcoholic beverages. Fictional though this may be, it becomes difficult to impossible to write legislation allowing guns in restaurants but not in, say, biker bars.



    GRNC is promoting the image of North Carolina concealed handgun permit-holders -- certified sane, sober and law abiding -- protecting their toddlers as they take the family to dinner. Presume, for a moment, we include open carry for individuals of indeterminate character and legality. Should we actually manage to recruit a sponsor for such a bill, the first time it comes up for a committee hearing, Dan Blue or Deborah Ross will paint lurid images of bad-ass bikers, pimps and drug dealers legally packing in the dirt-floored dive to which the cops dispatch for the murder-of-the-week. Not only will our sponsor run screaming from the committee room, GRNC will become known as the organization that hangs its sponsors out to dry.



    In the extremely unlikely event we were to ram such legislation down the throats of the NC Retail Merchants’ Association, the NC Restaurant Association, the NC Chamber of Commerce, and the NC Sheriffs’ Association – all of whom have deep pockets to spend on lobbyists; even if the McClatchy news organs formerly known as Pravda didn’t derail it, the net result would be fewer restaurants in which anyone could carry. Why? Because in the ensuing hysteria, even restaurants that don’t serve alcohol would post against firearms – which is their right under the Fifth Amendment.



    GRNC’s goal is to achieve improvements for NC gun owners. We might be able to achieve a loosening of restrictions for concealed handgun permit-holders. For open carry, those improvements are, at present, unachievable just as a “shall issue” concealed handgun law was unachievable until 1995.



    Should anyone choose not to believe me, I have a challenge: Meet me on Jones Street, at the Printed Bills office of the NC Legislative Building at 0830 on the first Tuesday of the legislative session, just like members of the GRNC Legislative Action Team do. I will personally introduce you to the legislators who sponsor gun bills and you can make your case.

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    Excuses, excuses, excuses~Sounds like a politician...

    Why does it not surprise me that someone who stereotypes bikers would also stereotype open carriers. PA they can open carry in bars, IMO that should be the bar or restaurant owners choice. Grass Roots that is rooted in stereotyping and fighting against the 2A.

    "GRNC is promoting the image of North Carolina concealed handgun permit-holders"

    That spells it out clearly, why would any open carrier in their right mind support such a one sided organization.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 11-05-2012 at 06:31 PM.
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    oh goodie another GRNC supporter

    nice to meet ya walking wolf and your stellar perspective of GRNC!!

    wabbit

    ps: care to meet for coffee/chai?

    pps: interesting to note the OP posted but once on this thread
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 11-05-2012 at 07:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    oh goodie another GRNC supporter

    nice to meet ya walking wolf and your stellar perspective of GRNC!!

    wabbit

    ps: care to meet for coffee/chai?

    pps: interesting to note the OP posted but once on this thread
    I'll have to check with the boss when, are you close to Sanford? or Spring Lake?

    I am surprised at GRNC disdain for open carry considering all the support they have gotten from the OC community. It is really becoming clear that they could care less about the rest of gun owners or even the 2A. If there is not a open carry organization in NC there should be, OCers are wasting their time supporting GRNC. Paul Valone has made it clear he wants nothing to do with us, unless it helps him.
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    So, it's just another version of a hidden gun is a safer gun. Nice. Even State v Kerner, which actually laid the groundwork for a lot of the carry restriction in NC, does not mention not carrying in bars. Just not carrying while intoxicated. Which oddly enough is not illegal if you are OC'ing. Go figure. Sometimes I feel like people are standing on their head trying to convince me the world is upside down.

    I understand the difficult nature of it. Maybe even the perception issue. But our legislatures, and now Valone, are acting like we are off base and don't have Constitutional authority to OC. So nobody has the spine to stand up and tell some of these fools we still have a Constitution? I get incrementalism and how it works in Gov. But when the Constitution is clearly on your side you should push your advantage when it presents itself.

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    Here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I'll have to check with the boss when, are you close to Sanford? or Spring Lake?

    I am surprised at GRNC disdain for open carry considering all the support they have gotten from the OC community. It is really becoming clear that they could care less about the rest of gun owners or even the 2A. If there is not a open carry organization in NC there should be, OCers are wasting their time supporting GRNC. Paul Valone has made it clear he wants nothing to do with us, unless it helps him.
    Apparently, I need to weigh in on this. First, GRNC does not express "disdain" for any part of the gun rights community. You probably don't know this, but you are talking to the guy who wrote the first and only "constitutional carry" (then called "Vermont carry") bill ever introduced in North Carolina. When Senate President Pro Tem Marc Basnight refused to give it a hearing, we had Sen. Hugh Webster file a discharge petition, which garnered the signatures of a number of Republicans. When Basnight wrongly ruled the petition not germaine to the debate, Hugh became the first Senator in over 100 years to challenge the ruling of the chair -- an extraordinarily ballsy maneuver which ultimately caused the Democratic Senate Committee, in the next election, to systematically target petition signatories with mailings featuring a child's book bag, an apple for the teacher, and a gun. They took out the most pro-gun senators in the chamber, including RL Clark, Jesse Ledbetter, John Blust and (ultimately) Hugh Webster himself.

    What I learned was to not risk pro-gun legislators on quixotic, unwinnable battles, but instead to gain ground one foot at a time. When I say I can sell the state on concealed handgun permit-holders who are certified as sane, sober and law-abiding, that does not mean I am done there, nor does it mean I value OC supporters an less than CHP-holders. What it means is that I have a better chance of selling that to the public, which will then discover that, low and behold, no disasters come of restaurant carry. Then and only then do we revisit the issue, quietly working to remove the restrictions of G.S. 14-263 altogether.

    Let me give you a recent example. Did you know GRNC just made machine guns unequivocally legal in North Carolina? Previously, two conflicting statutes caused the Attorney General to advise against signing Form 4s and could have subjected thousands of Title II collectors to felony prosecution. Did we do it overnight? Nope. Took 8 years. Did we do it by introducing a bill entitled: "Machine Guns Legal in North Carolina"? Hell, no. Politicians would have run screaming for the exits.

    What we did was to quietly slip it into an omnibus bill, as a committee substitute, which contained plenty of other contentious issues.We didn't use the word "machine gun" or "weapon of mass destruction" once. As a result, the measure received ZERO debate and was signed into law last year.

    What I sell the public on, and what I am actually after, are two very different things. Tacitcs, folks. Tactics. I've been at this for 18 years, and I know a little about how to get a bill passed instead of running nose first into a brick wall.

    Paul Valone
    President, Grass Roots North Carolina
    Last edited by FPV02; 11-06-2012 at 11:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FPV02 View Post
    Apparently, I need to weigh in on this. First, GRNC does not express "disdain" for any part of the gun rights community. You probably don't know this, but you are talking to the guy who wrote the first and only "constitutional carry" (then called "Vermont carry") bill ever introduced in North Carolina. When Senate President Pro Tem Marc Basnight refused to give it a hearing, we had Sen. Hugh Webster file a discharge petition, which garnered the signatures of a number of Republicans. When Basnight wrongly ruled the petition not germaine to the debate, Hugh became the first Senator in over 100 years to challenge the ruling of the chair -- an extraordinarily ballsy maneuver which ultimately caused the Democratic Senate Committee, in the next election, to systematically target petition signatories with mailings featuring a child's book bag, an apple for the teacher, and a gun. They took out the most pro-gun senators in the chamber, including RL Clark, Jesse Ledbetter, John Blust and (ultimately) Hugh Webster himself.

    What I learned was to not risk pro-gun legislators on quixotic, unwinnable battles, but instead to gain ground one foot at a time. When I say I can sell the state on concealed handgun permit-holders who are certified as sane, sober and law-abiding, that does not mean I am done there, nor does it mean I value OC supporters an less than CHP-holders. What it means is that I have a better chance of selling that to the public, which will then discover that, low and behold, no disasters come of restaurant carry. Then and only then do we revisit the issue, quietly working to remove the restrictions of G.S. 14-263 altogether.

    Let me give you a recent example. Did you know GRNC just made machine guns unequivocally legal in North Carolina? Previously, two conflicting statutes caused the Attorney General to advise against signing Form 4s and could have subjected thousands of Title II collectors to felony prosecution. Did we do it overnight? Nope. Took 8 years. Did we do it by introducing a bill entitled: "Machine Guns Legal in North Carolina"? Hell, no. Politicians would have run screaming for the exits.

    What we did was to quietly slip it into an omnibus bill, as a committee substitute, which contained plenty of other contentious issues.We didn't use the word "machine gun" or "weapon of mass destruction" once. As a result, the measure received ZERO debate and was signed into law last year.

    What I sell the public on, and what I am actually after, are two very different things. Tacitcs, folks. Tactics. I've been at this for 18 years, and I know a little about how to get a bill passed instead of running nose first into a brick wall.

    Paul Valone
    President, Grass Roots North Carolina
    Your first letter that you posted by proxy was an insult to motorcycle riders, open carriers, as well family. It was stereotyping of individuals and made it very clear that open carry was not only not your cup of tea, but offensive. You can play and claim tactics, but it is clear from that posting that you were involved with saddling us with these restrictions in the first place. I was perfectly happy with open carry as it was before YOU stuck you nose in it.

    Clue we already have constitutional open carry, stop fudging with it for YOUR agenda!

    Thanks BUT no thanks!

    BTW this is open carry site, something you are not interested in. I will ask you to keep your condescending tone to your own.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 11-06-2012 at 11:49 AM.
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    No more time wasting for me

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Your first letter that you posted by proxy was an insult to motorcycle riders, open carriers, as well family. It was stereotyping of individuals and made it very clear that open carry was not only not your cup of tea, but offensive. You can play and claim tactics, but it is clear from that posting that you were involved with saddling us with these restrictions in the first place. I was perfectly happy with open carry as it was before YOU stuck you nose in it.

    Clue we already have constitutional open carry, stop fudging with it for YOUR agenda!

    Thanks BUT no thanks!

    BTW this is open carry site, something you are not interested in. I will ask you to keep your condescending tone to your own.
    Are you really that incapable of differentiating between reality and public perception? First, I have nothing against bikers who, by the way, include most of my friends and GRNC's Legal Director. I actually DO spend time at biker bars. No condescension here, just ackowledgement of reality.

    And what "restrictions" did I "saddle" you with? GS 14-269.3, the restriction on firearms in restaurants with on-premises alcohol consumption permits, dates from 1977, when I was a freshman in college. Nothing in the concealed handgun law changed any aspect of open carry in North Carolina, which has always been and remains today legal. (Nor would constitutional carry which, if you don't know it, involves concealed carry without a permit.)

    I know your type too well: You divide and you waste time with infighting. Together with Walt Dannel and Hugh Adams, I started GRNC in 1994 rather than getting involved with NCRPA exactly to avoid that sort of infighting -- the type where you spend more time and effort fighting each other than the actual enemy.

    So go ahead: Shoot the messanger, and beat your chest about all the things GRNC should be doing. Meanwhile, the VOLUNTEERS of GRNC (which has never included you, to the best of my knowledge) have laws to pass (or repeal) and anti-gun politicians to defeat.

    To anyone reading this thread who has an open mind, rest assured that GRNC will be working for legislation to support ALL gun owners -- just as we recently defeated in court and then repealed from statutes NC's "State of Emergency" gun ban -- an action that just recently helped CHP and OC advocates alike.

    Come on out and work a gun show. Get involved with the Legislative Action Team. Help make a difference.

    Paul

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FPV02 View Post
    Are you really that incapable of differentiating between reality and public perception? First, I have nothing against bikers who, by the way, include most of my friends and GRNC's Legal Director. I actually DO spend time at biker bars. No condescension here, just ackowledgement of reality.

    And what "restrictions" did I "saddle" you with? GS 14-269.3, the restriction on firearms in restaurants with on-premises alcohol consumption permits, dates from 1977, when I was a freshman in college. Nothing in the concealed handgun law changed any aspect of open carry in North Carolina, which has always been and remains today legal. (Nor would constitutional carry which, if you don't know it, involves concealed carry without a permit.)

    I know your type too well: You divide and you waste time with infighting. Together with Walt Dannel and Hugh Adams, I started GRNC in 1994 rather than getting involved with NCRPA exactly to avoid that sort of infighting -- the type where you spend more time and effort fighting each other than the actual enemy.

    So go ahead: Shoot the messanger, and beat your chest about all the things GRNC should be doing. Meanwhile, the VOLUNTEERS of GRNC (which has never included you, to the best of my knowledge) have laws to pass (or repeal) and anti-gun politicians to defeat.

    To anyone reading this thread who has an open mind, rest assured that GRNC will be working for legislation to support ALL gun owners -- just as we recently defeated in court and then repealed from statutes NC's "State of Emergency" gun ban -- an action that just recently helped CHP and OC advocates alike.

    Come on out and work a gun show. Get involved with the Legislative Action Team. Help make a difference.

    Paul
    Awww now you know MY type~~bugger off, you have not done yourself any favors today. Just another politician looking out for your own agenda, and not even a good one at that. You made yourself clear with your predisposed notions of others. And for the record I don't care about the emotions of others, I care about my rights. The more you post the more anti you sound.
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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum Paul...
    Quote: VOLUNTEERS of GRNC have laws to pass (or repeal) and anti-gun politicians to defeat;
    quote ‘... as we recently defeated in court and then repealed the from statutes NC's "State of Emergency" gun ban.’ unquote;
    From your organizational website quote: GRNC passed a clean concealed handgun reciprocity law
    GRNC passed legislation enabling concealed handgun permit-holders to avoid redundant
    GRNC recently passed omnibus gun bill HB 650, which includes:
    Anti gun legislation GRNC has defeated:
    Quote 2. Drafted and passed by Grass Roots North Carolina in 2005, House Bill 1311, the “Domestic Violence Victims Empowerment Act,” unquote (http://www.grnc.org/pauls-blog/327-g...found-its-mark)

    and your other statements where your organization has passed laws...strange to think why do the citizens of NC have a General Assembly if GRNC passes our laws for NC citizens?

    Oh by the way, your comment regarding your organization defeated the NC emergency ban statute: I find it quite interesting to note the lawsuit was brought to the courts by the Second amendment foundation representing several NC citizens and as your own press release stated GRNC joined late in the game yet your organization seems to be taking full credit!!

    GRNC alerts are nothing more than ‘the sky is falling’ or the ‘wolf is coming’ rhetoric designed to only raise funds for your organization. Tho of late it is more about folding and handing out GRNC propaganda.
    Also Paul, i bet you are quite thankful NC does not require non-profits or political action type organizations (you control three at the moment) to provide public disclosure of how their donations are distributed. I know Paul, putting all your funding into the campaign chests of the political leaders exhausts your funding. Interesting fact Paul, did you know in NC those political leaders have to publically tell the state where their money comes from and it is an interesting adventure to delve into those documents and see how much money is actually provided by any of your POCs!!

    Quote: ‘What I sell the public on, and what I am actually after...’ unquote but are you Paul (quote) ‘...really that incapable of differentiating between reality and public perception? (unquote) from what i can read Paul i am not so sure!! question...the olde adage...there is no I in team comes to mind

    Paul regarding what you sell and what you are actually after: discuss the Dan Besse’s article where you posted a reporter’s nearly complete home address w/a link to photos of his wife and small children? And your response was you had to set an example to the media to let them know...they can no longer attack gun owners with impunity (http://www.grnc.org/pauls-blog/327-g...found-its-mark & http://bluenc.com/despicable-behavior-gun-fanatic ). Good heavens Paul this humble gun owner is embarrassed for you as it is my personal opinion that is abuse of your position and tremendous power as the chief officer of GRNC. So i must ask, if I or others challenge your perspective of your world as you believe it to be, will publish their identities and location also? To disregard the safety of the wife and children noncombatants is horrific.

    For other condescending BS you spout your attitude quote 'I know your type too well...’ and 'To anyone reading this thread who has an open mind..' so Paul if we are not a member of your elite group passing laws what are we? oh wait here is what paul said about that and Paul, I can’t believe you truly feel this way? Quote “When I say I can sell the state on concealed handgun permit-holders who are certified as sane, sober and law-abiding...’ unquote...and the OC membership as well as all the NC citizens who open carry it appears you do not consider us certified as sane, sober and law-abiding? I am aghast you did such a disservice to those who open carry as it appears we are mindless creatures w/a gun!

    Wabbit

    Ps: by the way how did the palmer case ever work out Paul?

    PPS: i also find it quite interesting after being a member for over 2 years you have lowered your standards and joined in our conversations...let's see 30 times and in this thread you have posted twice...
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 11-06-2012 at 10:37 PM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

  24. #24
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    The Wascally Wabbit is Wong

    Dear "Wabbit":

    Now, I am afraid you are perpetuating a dangerous myth – namely, that GRNC-PVF throws money at politicians. This is a time-waster, but with the election behind us I’ve got a few minutes, so what the hell. Your quotes and my responses are below.

    “and your other statements where your organization has passed laws...strange to think why do the citizens of NC have a General Assembly if GRNC passes our laws for NC citizens?”

    Sounds like you’ve been talking to Roulette. Which NCRPA sycophant are you? Russ Parker? Did GRNC volunteers vote on the bills in question? Don’t be ridiculous. But did they write the bills? You bet. Did they elect the politicians who sponsored the legislation and voted for it? You bet. Did they drop thousands of phone calls and emails to the pols who eventually voted for it? You bet. Did they show up at the offices of key committee voters to ensure that, even with schedule conflicts, all the necessary votes showed up to get the bills through committee? You bet. Did they provide the talking points and legal analyses to make sure the bills moved? You bet. Did we make the deal with Perdue’s legislative advisor, former House rep (and GRNC sponsor) Pryor Gibson, to get her to sign HB 650? You bet. Maybe you should worry less about syntax and more about substance.

    “Oh by the way, your comment regarding your organization defeated the NC emergency ban statute: I find it quite interesting to note the lawsuit was brought to the courts by the Second amendment foundation representing several NC citizens and as your own press release stated GRNC joined late in the game yet your organization seems to be taking full credit!!”

    Wrong again. Alan Gura and I go way back. He has, in fact, represented GRNC in the past. GRNC was involved in Bateman from the beginning. Gura called me up about 6 months before the McDonald v. Chicago decision was announced, asking me to help him round up plaintiffs for the suit, which we did. We filed on the same day McDonald was announced. Up until the filing, it was all done very quietly to avoid giving the NRA an early heads up.

    Later, Gottlieb, Gura and I rather carefully deflected the NRA’s attempt to have the lawsuit dismissed as moot by trying to repeal the SOE law. Although Gura did not initially want to make public the argument that litigation was preferably to legislation (he felt a judge might not like it), it became necessary when the NRA, failing to get action on SB 594, started having members pressure Republicans. Their final maneuver was to have Doug Berger try to amend HB 650 on the Senate floor after objecting to having 3rd reading on the same day as 2nd reading (which requires unanimous consent). After the Senate adjourned, with 3rd reading on HB 650 not complete, I spent the night wondering what Berger was up to. Only as the Senate convened the next day did it dawn on me he would try to hang the SOE repeal onto HB 650. I called the Senator who hated Berger most, Deb Clary. Although she was in session, her legislative assistant relayed Berger’s intention to her on the floor. The message I got back was: “Deb says don’t worry. They have it handled.” Shortly thereafter, just as HB 650 hit the floor, the chamber adjourned for about 10 minutes, after which it reconvened and passed HB 650without amendment, the Republicans having explained the realities of the situation to Doug.

    The next day, Roullette was not a happy camper. In fact, according to staffers in the Senate President Pro Tem's office, he became persona non grata in the Senate.

    The GRNC press releases you describe all listed the Second Amendment Foundation, which bankrolled the lawsuit, and were in fact carefully coordinated with Gura and Gottlieb. Essentially, Gura provided the legal expertise, Gottlieb bankrolled the op, and GRNC recruited plaintiffs and ran legislative interference to ensure the NRA didn’t once again interfere with Gura’s efforts, as they did in both Heller and McDonald. Don't take my word for it. Ask Gottlieb.

    “GRNC alerts are nothing more than ‘the sky is falling’ or the ‘wolf is coming’ rhetoric designed to only raise funds for your organization. Tho of late it is more about folding and handing out GRNC propaganda.”

    Good God. You actually believe that, don’t you? GRNC pays nobody, operates on a shoestring, and has invested nearly all the funds raised in the "Remember in November" project by which we distributed nearly 150,000 voter guides – with highly satisfactory results in North Carolina, I should note.

    We do occasionally send fundraisers (as all political non-profits should), but GRNC alerts don’t make more than a peripheral attempt to raise money. They are primarily oriented toward directing thousands of emails and calls to targeted legislators. Using just those alerts, directing literally thousands of emails to the Senate, GRNC was able to get Sen. Pete Brunstetter to ditch leadership’s plan to replace the unconstitutional SOE ban with yet another unconstitutional SOE ban. (Here, by the way, thanks are due to someone outside the organization for an early heads up on Brunstetter’s committee action on HB 489.) And by the way, I field heartfelt “thankyou’s” every day from GRNC members for what you mischaracterize as “cry wolf” alerts.

    “Also Paul, i bet you are quite thankful NC does not require non-profits or political action type organizations (you control three at the moment) to provide public disclosure of how their donations are distributed. I know Paul, putting all your funding into the campaign chests of the political leaders exhausts your funding. Interesting fact Paul, did you know in NC those political leaders have to publically tell the state where their money comes from and it is an interesting adventure to delve into those documents and see how much money is actually provided by any of your POCs!!”

    Boy, now you sound just like Barack Obama. Been taking talking points from the lefties? First, your ignorance is showing. You can find disclosures for the GRNC Political Victory Fund at the NC State Board of Elections website. You can lso see where politicians get their money. It is a violation of election law for candidates to take money from ANY corporation, including non-profits. As for GRNC-PVF, what you will find is that we DON’T GIVE MONEY TO POLITICIANS, having long ago learned that throwing money at pols is generally a bad investment.

    What we do are “independent expenditures,” including mailings for or against candidates (we now reach roughly 2500 gun voters in a typical NC House district, and 5000+ in a typical NC Senate district, and as many as 25,000 in a typical congressional district), robocalls, and radio spots. As such, we are prohibited by law from coordinating with candidates.

    And yes, I am quite aware that we operate 3 separate political entities. They are Grass Roots North Carolina (our 501c4), the GRNC Political Victory Fund (our federal PAC) and Rights Watch International (our 501c3) – exactly as the NRA and GOA do. It is, in fact the standard model for political non-profits.

    On your accusation about giving money to politicians, I would suggest you be very careful with what you say. As I just noted, GRNC does not give money to politicians. If you have any evidence that “putting all [our] funding into the campaign chests of the political leaders exhausts [our] funding” you had better present it, because what you just did is called “libel” and is legally actionable. I just did a screen shot and will be consulting our legal director.

    “Paul regarding what you sell and what you are actually after: discuss the Dan Besse’s article where you posted a reporter’s nearly complete home address w/a link to photos of his wife and small children? And your response was you had to set an example to the media to let them know...they can no longer attack gun owners with impunity (http://www.grnc.org/pauls-blog/327-g...found-its-mark & http://bluenc.com/despicable-behavior-gun-fanatic ). Good heavens Paul this humble gun owner is embarrassed for you as it is my personal opinion that is abuse of your position and tremendous power as the chief officer of GRNC. So i must ask, if I or others challenge your perspective of your world as you believe it to be, will publish their identities and location also? To disregard the safety of the wife and children noncombatants is horrific.”

    Really? So I guess the dozens of GRNC members who have thanked us for discouraging the media from “outing” concealed handgun permit-holders were a fluke? We released partial information on Binker just as he and WRAL released partial information on CHP-holders. And judging by the media squealing, our shot was right on the mark. And by the way, you’re getting your info from bluenc.com? Consorting with the left wing radicals are we? You should keep better company.

    Since arguing with you is undoubtedly like marching in quicksand, I’ll leave it there. But I would advise you against making accusations which state, as fact, falsehoods about GRNC or about me, lest you end up on the receiving end of litigation.
    Last edited by FPV02; 11-07-2012 at 12:29 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    "Which NCRPA sycophant are you?"

    Just what do you think you are accomplishing? Personal insults are against the rules here, have you read them? This is why nothing you say can be taken seriously, or with expectation of honesty. I certainly hope the moderators take action to your insults to Open Carry members.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 11-07-2012 at 02:50 PM.
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