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Thread: best way to deal with a leo that does not know the laws of oc or cc

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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    best way to deal with a leo that does not know the laws of oc or cc

    If you are approached by a officer who does not know the laws on oc or cc, and says you are breaking the how can you resolve this. Can you request another officer who knows the law or do you fight it in court if you are charged with something.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Depends on the situation...

    Sometimes you use the Madagascar Penguin' defense, "Smile and wave boys, smile and wave."
    Sometimes you use the Wookie defense, "Let the wookie win."
    ...
    Sometimes you tell him to go pound sand, accept the arrest and then take him or his department to court and make them pay.

    Asking for another, senior officer is a crap-shoot. 1) There's no guarantee that the other officer knows the law any better than the first, and 2) there's no reason for the officer not to lie if it's to his advantage, his partner's advantage, or the departments.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 11-06-2012 at 12:40 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I think this is really going to depend on where you live, and more specifically than just what state.

    Even around here, I would treat Las Vegas Metro Police (Clark County) and North Las Vegas Police much differently than I would treat Henderson Police, Boulder City Police, Mesquite Police, Nye County deputies, and the Nevada Highway Patrol.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan
    If you are approached by a officer who does not know the laws on oc or cc, and says you are breaking the how can you resolve this. Can you request another officer who knows the law or do you fight it in court if you are charged with something.
    1) welcome to the site
    2) the search function is your friend
    3) yes, you can request a supervisor. You can also try to explain the laws, but that has had varying success. You can also fight a charge in court, but that's expensive (DAMHIK).
    4) probably the best thing to do is know the laws yourself & understand your rights. "Why am I being detained?" If they give you a reason, invoke your rights to remain silent & have a lawyer present for questioning. If they say you're not being detained, walk away. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    This is in the WI forum, & has lots of general info with the state-specific stuff.

    Two of the most valuable videos you can watch are the ones on YouTube titled "don't talk with police". There's a link in that thread I referenced. The first part is a law professor talking at warp speed, explaining why talking with police is never a good idea (unless you called for help, & even then be careful). The second part is an ex-cop who basically says "yeah, what he said" & explains some of his tactics to get people to talk.

    Then there's a site (& YouTube channel) www.flexyourrights.org They have maybe 8 videos showing various scenarios & how to handle them to preserve your rights, all very calm & respectful, but assertive.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 11-06-2012 at 10:58 AM.

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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Depends on the situation...

    Sometimes you use the Madagascar Penguin' defense, "Smile and wave boys, smile and wave."
    Sometimes you use the Wookie defense, "Let the wookie win."
    ...
    Sometimes you tell him to go pound sand, accept the arrest and then take him or his department to court and make them pay.

    Asking for another, senior officer is a crap-shoot. 1) There's no guarantee that the other officer knows the law any better than the first, and 2) there's no reason for the officer not to lie if it's to his advantage, his partner's advantage, or the departments.
    I make sure I know the laws where I am carrying. But that is my biggest fear is a cop who does not know the law and causes me a lot of trouble. But I like the wookie defence.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    ... But I like the wookie defence.
    Remember it is not the preferred one, but sometimes must be used.

    After all, it just continues to encourage the wookies.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    If you are approached by a officer who does not know the laws on oc or cc, and says you are breaking the how can you resolve this.
    You are not going to change his mind ... so keep quite. If he wants to arrest you then you only have two real choices ... let him arrest you or don't.

    You cannot teach the guy anything except within a courtroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    If you are approached by a officer who does not know the laws on oc or cc, and says you are breaking the how can you resolve this. Can you request another officer who knows the law or do you fight it in court if you are charged with something.
    One thing not mentioned yet is the cop who knows the law but is telling you that you are breaking the law as a way of intimidating you into compliance. Maybe with an express threat of citation or arrest; or maybe letting you fill in the blank yourself as an implied threat.

    The safest option is to exercise your 4th and 5th Amendment rights, while letting the wookie win. Just collect your evidence on your voice-recorder (if legal in that jurisdiction) and fight him later where he no longer has all the advantages he has on the street. Sting him with a well-written formal complaint; or a lawsuit if appropriate.

    This has the added advantage of not backing a bad cop into a corner on the street. Cornered animals can be vicious. Cornered bad cops--no less. Lets say a bad cop seizes you on the street with no legal justification to investigate you (fishing expedition) or harass you or intimidate you into not carrying. You throw a bunch of legal stuff in his face, especially about an illegal detention--now you're starting to corner him. Mention a formal complaint or lawsuit, and you've practically got him fenced 350-degrees around. Refer to your camera or voice-recorder to prove you'll have evidence. Now he has to do something to protect himself. Basically you've almost forced him to arrest you and trump up charges and lie in court in order to obtain a conviction; because these are the only ways he can protect himself against your complaint or lawsuit. What if he's a bad cop with two or three disciplinary letters in his personnel file already? Now he's even more desperate to get you before you can get him.

    If you are arrested, you get thoroughly searched. You're recording device will be found, even if you didn't mention it. Want to bet whether the recording doesn't get deleted, assuming the device is even returned to you?

    That is sort of a drastic scenario, but not outside the realm of possibility.

    So, yeah. Safest to let the wookie win until you know more about these things. While exercising your 4th and 5th Amendment rights, of course. In this case, your 4A and 5A rights are legal protections.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Give him ONE chance to hear what the REAL law is.

    If he's too dumb or malicious to accept that, don't waste your time on a moron or a *******.

    Invoke your right to remain silent.

    Pursue all of your remedies, administrative, legal and POLITICAL. If there's embarrassing video release it. Make that cop an internet superstar like FORMER Officer Daniel Harless of the Canton PD.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Give him ONE chance to hear what the REAL law is.

    If he's too dumb or malicious to accept that, don't waste your time on a moron or a *******.

    Invoke your right to remain silent.

    Pursue all of your remedies, administrative, legal and POLITICAL. If there's embarrassing video release it. Make that cop an internet superstar like FORMER Officer Daniel Harless of the Canton PD.
    Which brings up a question. If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m-----f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?

    While this may seem to be a loaded question, there is a reason to ask it.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    2) the search function is your friend
    Apparently you've never tried using it
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Which brings up a question. If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m-----f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?

    While this may seem to be a loaded question, there is a reason to ask it.
    I know this doesn't answer your question but I have found not resorting to their level (and I am normally a fairly foul mouthed person) and keeping my calm and not using that language, seems to make them even more frustrated.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Which brings up a question. If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m-----f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?

    While this may seem to be a loaded question, there is a reason to ask it.
    Ever heard the mantra, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"?

    If you use vile language in response to an out-of-control, foul-mouthed police officer, all you are doing is lowering yourself to his/her level and further inflaming the situation. Best is to remain polite, calm, and mostly silent.

    Keep in mind that such an "officer" is as dangerous as an armed Claymore mine; all he/she needs is the right trigger to explode. And you are on the "Face Toward Enemy" side of that mine.
    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    One thing not mentioned yet is the cop who knows the law but is telling you that you are breaking the law as a way of intimidating you into compliance. .
    This one is more common. I was accosted by a LEO (officer allen bass, Bellingham PD) who KNEW I was legally armed but had a weapon(his) in my gut. It can be very easy to get shot in a situation like this. The officer was outgunned mentally and when he tried to bully me I resisted and he became a danger to me and himself. Always a roll of the dice with a LEO contact like this.
    I was in the Navy for my first seven years of Military Service. When I was in dive school I had a Chief that told us over and over that "Profanity is a demonstration of a poor vocabulary!". This I believe and practice as well as I can. When I get into confrontations a smile and a firm voice works. I always answer questions with questions. [ Let me see your ID!...Why would I want to do that?......Why are you carrying a gun?.....Am I being detained?...]
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
    If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m----- f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?
    1) because then you're no better than him
    2) you're escalating the situation
    3) it frustrates/confuses the bad ones more if you stay calm
    4) it impairs communication
    5) when the video or audio is published, you look better if you don't

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Which brings up a question. If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m-----f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?

    While this may seem to be a loaded question, there is a reason to ask it.
    Because, in some states, language that would tend to provoke a disturbance falls under the heading of disorderly conduct and would be actionable. And, it wouldn't take a cop as bad as Harless to twist even softer language than you've given into disorderly conduct. All he has to do is cite or arrest you knowing he's caused you a buncha headaches even if the judge tosses it out.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    1) because then you're no better than him
    2) you're escalating the situation
    3) it frustrates/confuses the bad ones more if you stay calm
    4) it impairs communication
    5) when the video or audio is published, you look better if you don't
    6) it shows that you were not mentally ready to have any police encounter (I understand that sometimes anyone can slip)
    7) it shows that he/she is winning and not you.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Which brings up a question. If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m-----f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?

    While this may seem to be a loaded question, there is a reason to ask it.
    I save that language for the courtroom (and the holding cell near the courtroom).

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I save that language for the courtroom (and the holding cell near the courtroom).
    I did not believe you got arrested that often.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I have found not resorting to their level (and I am normally a fairly foul mouthed person) and keeping my calm and not using that language, seems to make them even more frustrated.
    +1
    (and I still got sentenced to anger management)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    +1
    (and I still got sentenced to anger management)
    OF course they couldn't control their anger and somehow that's your fault.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I know this doesn't answer your question but I have found not resorting to their level (and I am normally a fairly foul mouthed person) and keeping my calm and not using that language, seems to make them even more frustrated.
    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Ever heard the mantra, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"?

    If you use vile language in response to an out-of-control, foul-mouthed police officer, all you are doing is lowering yourself to his/her level and further inflaming the situation. Best is to remain polite, calm, and mostly silent.

    Keep in mind that such an "officer" is as dangerous as an armed Claymore mine; all he/she needs is the right trigger to explode. And you are on the "Face Toward Enemy" side of that mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    1) because then you're no better than him
    2) you're escalating the situation
    3) it frustrates/confuses the bad ones more if you stay calm
    4) it impairs communication
    5) when the video or audio is published, you look better if you don't
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Because, in some states, language that would tend to provoke a disturbance falls under the heading of disorderly conduct and would be actionable. And, it wouldn't take a cop as bad as Harless to twist even softer language than you've given into disorderly conduct. All he has to do is cite or arrest you knowing he's caused you a buncha headaches even if the judge tosses it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I save that language for the courtroom (and the holding cell near the courtroom).
    Thanks for the answers. Mind you all that I was not intimating that I would do this.... it was only hypothetical. I prefer to try my best to maintain an aura of calm and civility in the face of such behavior. Though I do admit to getting in the face of an Arlington motor cop back in the early 90's. I won, he lost.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Which brings up a question. If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m-----f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?

    While this may seem to be a loaded question, there is a reason to ask it.
    I have precisely ZERO desire to talk to the police, so it's a moot point for me.

    If I'm not free to leave, I've got NOTHING to say.

    Of course if I AM free to leave, I have NOTHING to say.

    I have no more desire to converse with police than I do with panhandling winos or Jehovah's Witnesses.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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