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Thread: Is a CPL actually required to OC to polling station in a church?

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    Is a CPL actually required to OC to polling station in a church?

    It's being leased for the day, and covered under preemption. So technically is a CPL required to OC?

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    better safe than sorry. is it a lease? if so that brings up an interesting point.
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    from MCRGO Enews (written by an attorney)
    Frequently Asked Question

    Q: Is it true that a church or other place of worship in Michigan is not considered to be a place on the so-called "Pistol Free Zones" list when it is not being used for active church purposes?

    A: No. It is not true. MCL 28.425o states that the list of places where your CPL does not apply includes: "(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility." This would seem to include church camps, softball fields etc. regardless of whether there are religious or secular activities (or no activities) being carried on.

    This law also raises another interesting question: Who is the presiding official? In my practice, I have had churches as clients and I can tell you that it is not always clear what individual or body within the church has the authority to grant the kind of permission mentioned above. Churches have various, differing corporate structures. In one case, I worked with a church that had two boards: spiritual and temporal. The spiritual board was tasked with hiring and firing the pastor and other religious matters. The temporal board was tasked with dealing with financial and legal issues.

    In that particular church, only the temporal board would have the authority to grant permission to carry a concealed pistol on church property. In other churches, the pastor may have the authority to grant such permission. So, be sure that you are dealing the the appropriate church official when obtaining permission to carry concealed on church premises.

    Note also that the statute does not say that the permission must be in writing. However, it may be considered a prudent step to ask for a signed letter on church letterhead memorializing the grant of permission.

    I have had contact with churches that have a group of volunteers with CPLs (Concealed Pistol Licenses) who are tasked with carrying their pistols at services on a weekly basis, in much the same way that other lay volunteers set up schedules for their duties. Some others take the position that guns are not welcome on their property. As private property owners, churches are free to make this decision and anyone who carries in violation of such a church policy would be in violation of MCL 28.425o and have the status of trespasser.

    Steve Dulan (www.StevenWDulan.com) is a member of the Board of Directors of the MCRGO and theMCRGO Foundation, and a member of the Board of Trustees of the MCRGO Foundation. He is an attorney in private practice in East Lansing and Adjunct Professor of firearms law at The Thomas M. Cooley Law School. as well as an Endowment Member of the NRA.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    better safe than sorry. is it a lease? if so that brings up an interesting point.
    This is my point, I would assume it has been leased for the day. Not worth my wife risking, just a subject for conversation. I am very interested.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    i can't find any information confirming that any precincts EVER lease their locations. i would assume they don't and that the locations simply open their doors to voters. but either way, i would go with the opinion of steve dulan i posted above. he's very knowledgeable when it comes to gun law in michigan.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Now I'm not from Michigan and know relatively little about their laws, but this seems to be a general enough topic...

    It would seem to me they would have SOME form of lease agreement, if just to limit liability. I mean if it's a voting precinct then people other than church officials have practical control of the property and are inviting scores of people who the church can't filter or control onto their property to vote. What happens if a voter or poll watcher damages something or through neglect or carelessness causes expensive damages to the church in question. It would surprise me if they didn't have SOME form of agreement on those lines....

    And if they do, then the elections board, precinct, et al are now leasing the property... But real property law is not something I'm heavily knowledgable on. you would know more then me.
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 11-06-2012 at 12:21 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    you could be right, in fact, you probably are. all of what you are saying makes sense. i just can't find any information on it one way or another.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJohnson View Post
    This is my point, I would assume it has been leased for the day. Not worth my wife risking, just a subject for conversation. I am very interested.
    I agree not worth risking your wife, I mean those dishes arent going to wash themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CJohnson View Post
    It's being leased for the day, and covered under preemption. So technically is a CPL required to OC?
    750.234d prohibits possession/carry of firearms on the premises unless you have a CPL or permission. The leasing of a church, or part of the church, would not change the intent of the law IMO.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(nhs...e=mcl-750-234d

    28.425o, on the other hand, prohibits CPL holders from carrying concealed pistols, unless you have permission from the presiding official.

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